Is the hammer and sickle as offensive as the swastika or the confederate flag?

May 2016
3,670
916
california
#71
California has had, some say, serious talk about secession but hopefully it doesn't happen. I wouldn't want to see it burned to the ground by government troops.
 

Chief

Former Staff
Nov 2009
32,002
19,139
SoCal
#72
The confederate flag is a symbol of treason. It also is a(n ironic) symbol of Donald "you-lost-get-over-it" Trump.

That said, the hammer & sickle is probably the least offensive of the three. It represented a country, and more broadly a competitor political ideology. The other two - the swastika and the confederate flag - are political symbols with hatred/genocide and treason as their ideologies, respectively. I would thus rank offensiveness of the three symbols, relative to each other, as: swastika, confederate flag, hammer-and-sickle.
In my head I get it. But that's not how I feel. When I was growing up the confederate flag didn't carry the meaning of treason to me. Even if it should have, as a battle standard that opposed the union, I remember the meaning it conveyed had more to do with a sort of regional pride.
 

The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
44,599
31,158
Toronto
#73
The confederate flag is a symbol of treason. It also is a(n ironic) symbol of Donald "you-lost-get-over-it" Trump.

That said, the hammer & sickle is probably the least offensive of the three. It represented a country, and more broadly a competitor political ideology. The other two - the swastika and the confederate flag - are political symbols with hatred/genocide and treason as their ideologies, respectively. I would thus rank offensiveness of the three symbols, relative to each other, as: swastika, confederate flag, hammer-and-sickle.
Just because it doesn't represent a genocide of YOUR people, doesn't mean it doesn't represent genocide to me...

MY ancestors were slaughtered and others rotted away in camps, under that flag. For their Orthodox Christian faith, Cossack ethnicity in the case of plenty on father's side, as well as being affluent land owners (Kulaks) in the case of plenty of others.

Dekulakization and Decossackization were very real genocides, my friend, which killed hundreds of thousands, at least, targeting, again, whole groups of people.

Whole extended families were locked inside their wooden barns and burned alive. Others were marched out into fields or forests and simply shot dead. In the camps, plenty were tortured; and many others - forced into slave labor which gradually destroyed their health and drove them to a slower, yet no less agonizing death...

One day, when the Commie Party finally loses its remaining influence in Russia, there will be a Nuremberg for them too, I hope...
 
May 2007
19,342
15,454
Houston, Texas
#74
At a societal level, the confederate flag is effectively banned now. One can expect to be shunned and labeled a racist should they dare to display it in public.

That is a fairly recent development (last decade?) and was declared by a select group of the self righteous.




..
We have a lot of Confederate flags here in Texas. A lot of Trump supporters also support the Old South. Texas has quite a few red necks with a shoe size larger than their I.Q.
 

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
73,770
42,196
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
#76
Just because it doesn't represent a genocide of YOUR people, doesn't mean it doesn't represent genocide to me...
Fair enough. I was answering the question from a subjective viewpoint - it is a fundamentally subjective question - so I recognize different people feel differently about the various symbols.

(And, of course, the USSR was not particularly friendly toward Jews, either ... or any other religious group.)
One day, when the Commie Party finally loses its remaining influence in Russia, there will be a Nuremberg for them too, I hope...
If any of the offenders are left alive, sure, I would go for that.
 

HCProf

Moderator
Sep 2014
27,171
16,220
USA
#77
Hmm...

I am not sure if "offensive" is the right word. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and the USSR was the enemy of my country. I have always viewed the nation of Russia and the former USSR in that light. (Though I separate how I feel about the people, from how I feel about the nation)

Certainly I would look at the first two as enemy ensigns.

I don't feel the same way about the confederate flag... perhaps I should. But because it was quite a bit earlier, I don't feel the same sort of betrayal from it... and in part that may be because I come from a state that was in that confederacy.
I remember being terrified as a child/teen of a nuclear missile blasting us from Russia. Back then we had bomb drills. Russia did not do one thing to the US then and I doubt they would now. As far as the confederate flag...most people do not associate the flag with racism. Everyone has their own interpretation. My adult nephew associates it with the TV show...The Dukes of Hazard. LOL He has a antique car that was on the show with a confederate flag on the side of it. He was shocked when I told him it was considered a symbol of racism. He is not much of a history buff. LOL
 
Likes: The Man
Jun 2014
60,143
34,429
Cleveland, Ohio
#78
Don't you remember the Cold War? And, how about all of those murdered under U.S.S.R rule?
I think the U.S. was the aggressor in the Cold War, and we were wrong. Our foreign policy was immoral.

I also think we caused a great deal of Stalin's paranoia and inadvertently caused his campaign of terror on his own citizens. Though truly, that could never be proven.
 

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
73,770
42,196
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
#79
I think the U.S. was the aggressor in the Cold War, and we were wrong. Our foreign policy was immoral.

I also think we caused a great deal of Stalin's paranoia and inadvertently caused his campaign of terror on his own citizens. Though truly, that could never be proven.
I am not buying any of that.
 
Likes: boontito
Jul 2011
56,013
10,918
NYC/Москва
#80
The confederate flag is a symbol of treason. It also is a(n ironic) symbol of Donald "you-lost-get-over-it" Trump.

That said, the hammer & sickle is probably the least offensive of the three. It represented a country, and more broadly a competitor political ideology. The other two - the swastika and the confederate flag - are political symbols with hatred/genocide and treason as their ideologies, respectively. I would thus rank offensiveness of the three symbols, relative to each other, as: swastika, confederate flag, hammer-and-sickle.



Ian,

42 million dead.......


Under that symbol.