Judge says teen who filmed himself raping a girl deserves leniency

[Ian Jeffrey]

You know, I can't help looking back at the older times, at the Middle Ages.

Of course, lifespans were considerably shorter then, so relatively speaking 16 was older then than it is now.

She was then aged 16. And this was, keep in mind, a scandal, at the time, because she was considered couple years TOO OLD for marriage!

Oh, the horror...

Etc. Many young and colorful characters, back then (hell, Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet were each like 14 or 15, I believe lol)

Romeo and Juliet was not a love story. It was a two- to three-day affair between two teenagers that resulted in five people dying (including them).

 

[The Man]

Of course, lifespans were considerably shorter then, so relatively speaking 16 was older then than it is now.

Oh, the horror...

Romeo and Juliet was not a love story. It was a two- to three-day affair between two teenagers that resulted in five people dying (including them).

Damn, I need to reread that now... I don't recall who were the other three who died... lol

 

[Ian Jeffrey]

My parents were married and had four kids by the time they were 23. They had jobs and were responsible. Today thats seen as "too young"....

In the Orthodox Jewish world, this is not an uncommon scenario. Maybe not always quite that young, but generally they are looking to get married young. (I did not grow up in that environment, of course, so you cannot go by me...)

 

[Ian Jeffrey]

Damn, I need to reread that now... I don't recall who were the other three who died... lol

Mercutio, Tybalt ... and I forget the fifth.

You have to listen to Jomeo & Ruliet, though ... hilarious story spold in toonerism.

 

[Akosikojak]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a bit here for a number of reasons...



Actually most teens, not just boys but also girls often use language this way. They play act at being an adult. Also have you listened to most of their favorite influences in the media? Such braggadocio and imagery is very common. It makes me think many of you haven't listened to a contemporary song on the radio in roughly 10-15 years.

A not even rough example...

I'm always a bit shocked by this one way acceptance of both consent and responsibility. So she gets drunk and is completely excused from all her actions. He gets drunk and not only should be held accountable for his actions but tried as an adult.

The reasoning has to work two ways. If she couldn't consent to her actions because she was drunk then how can he be held liable for his actions when he was drunk?



Would you only press charges a period of time later (several months later) when the video was still being circulated instead of at the time of the alleged crime?



He is alleged to have raped due to her being unable to consent due to bring drunk. There was no age difference and both of them were drunk so if he is a rapist then so is she.

I understand older laws made the man exclusively responsible for getting consent but then we did things like allow women to vote and own land and being fully legal and responsible human beings and that is a two way street.

She didn't fight this act. She didn't say no. She didn't allege she was raped afterwards. What happened is two kids got drunk and had consensual sex to whatever degree two sixteen year olds who are drinking are able to understand or consent to anything. He made a video of it. He circulated it. When he was asked to stop he either didn't stop or lied about it or the friends kept sharing it. The parents pressed charges several months later.

To hit on a few points made in this thread....

No one said the family is rich. Within this thread someone specifically said good family is code for rich and now the kid and his family are suddenly rich.

We haven't seen the video but the presumption that it gives clear detail of the act. It doesn't. From the news descriptions it would appear they were doing it "doggy style" and you see her head and part of her torso is bare. I'd presume based off media descriptions that you don't see him.

So a the back of head hair, a torso, and I'd guess not well lit.

She clearly was profoundly drunk which makes her.... a terrible witness.

So what you have alleged is a drunk 16 year old boy having unforced sex with a drunk 16 year old girl. Neither party can consent if they are drunk. He could claim she answered affirmatively and her actions would appear to show that the sex was not forced upon her. She would testify that she drank too much and doesn't remember anything.

Does the court hold a 16 year old boy responsible as an expert at judging the sobriety and ability of the 16 year old girl to consent? By what means does it do that?

It's clear with the timeframe that no one was upset about the act. They were upset about the video. Statutory rape can't be filed against the boy because they are in the same peer group. There was no age difference to take advantage of by him or her. So the real issue is they wanted the video stopped and I'd guess that given the nature of it, they can't really prove it is him or her even though "everybody knows" it is the two of them.

So now...it becomes rape....which speaks to her motive. An unreliable witness with a questionable motive... they can scream at the judge all they want but I can't see how this goes better else where. It might go long and expensive but I can't see anyone getting a conviction.

Good question, but IDK if I would or not unless I was put into that situation to be perfectly honest with ya.

 

[Akosikojak]

Nope. Not enemy. Just responsible for their own choices and actions

Exactly, and something that is sorely missing from some people in our society.

 

[Akosikojak]

Humans are products of their environment. My parents were married and had four kids by the time they were 23. They had jobs and were responsible. Today thats seen as "too young" and often times we see people that age living at home with mom and dad and playing video games in the basement. Young people can be as responsible as their expectations. If we expect them to still be living with mom at age 30, a lot of them will be. They "get away with it."

Yep agreed.
I have a few extended family members whose kids are living w/them well into their late 20's, and a few into their 30's. That's Effin crazy IMO. My oldest one moved out at 18 years old (as I highly encouraged him to do so) for about a year before he enlisted into the military .

When my oldest son was growing up (especially in his younger teenage years) he would tell me periodically that I didn't act like some of is friends Dads. I asked what does that mean? He told me such things as his friends could come home whenever they wanted (no curfew). They would let their kids smoke cigarettes and / or weed, drink alcohol. Call them by first name (big no no in my family) etc etc etc. I told him numerous times growing up that I will always be your father first, I can, but not always, will be your friend.

 

[The Man]

Yep agreed.
I have a few extended family members whose kids are living w/them well into their late 20's, and a few into their 30's. That's Effin crazy IMO. My oldest one moved out at 18 years old (as I highly encouraged him to do so) for about a year before he enlisted into the military .

When my oldest son was growing up (especially in his younger teenage years) he would tell me periodically that I didn't act like some of is friends Dads. I asked what does that mean? He told me such things as his friends could come home whenever they wanted (no curfew). They would let their kids smoke cigarettes and / or weed, drink alcohol. Call them by first name (big no no in my family) etc etc etc. I told him numerous times growing up that I will always be your father first, I can, but not always, will be your friend.

Yep, you HAVE to do that, as a good parent. Instill discipline and also self sufficiency as well. Otherwise, it can end very sadly...

I remember this guy I knew back in Moscow, Uncle Viktor (friend of my actual Uncle Alik over there; Viktor was not my real uncle, but young people over there call ALL grown up "Uncle" or "Auntie" lol).

Viktor was a rich guy. Very wealthy, at the very least. Very well off. Not an oligarch, but, very upper middle class, at least.

He had a very nice dacha in the suburbs. With a sauna, poor, billiard room, ping-pong room, disco/dance room with the spinning ball and lights & music system, home movie theater system, lots of other cool stuff there. Even a laptop plugged into internet, in 2002, when such things were crazy rare for private citizens there lol

And also lots of nice expensive paintings and statues and antique weapons and whatnot.

I loved visiting that place haha

Dude started his own business in early 90s, after the USSR fell apart. He got into all kinds of things: deloivery/courier services for other companies. Trucking. All sorts of stuff, really, I don't know most of it. Made himself a nice fortune. And interesting friends too. I recall when we went to his dacha once. We came on the train and Viktor and his driver picked us up in the car, at the station.

On the way, we stopped over at the local store, Alik and Viktor wanted to get some booze and other stuff, food and such, there was a bunch of other guests coming.

We parked at the store, in our black Audi. And there were two other cars there, a black BMW and also big black SUV, Chevrolet, I think, if I remember correctly. Bunch of these tough looking guys were milling about those cars, shaved heads, leather jackets, all looked like either professional fighters or ex-military. And then this older guy emerged from the store, along with couple more of those shaved head ones. One of them rushed to open the door of the BMW for him; but then he sees Uncle Viktor

"Hey! Vitya, my brother! What's up, how's business?"

"Oh, all is good, Zakhar Knyazevich, business is well. Profits up in all the sectors, you know."

"Good, good to hear. Profits for you means profits for me, yes?"

They laugh, then hug, and then that other guy hops into the BMW, all his bodyguards also get into the cars and they all drive off.

Later, we bought what we wanted and driving to the dacha, and Alik asks him, "Hey, who was that, with the BMW?"

"Oh, just our local avtoritet (mob boss). He protects my company..."

Was only in 2015, when he was arrested (after his guys were involved in a downtown Moscow shootout with a rival gang that left at least two men dead), that I realize I met, that day, none other than Zakhariy Kalashov, aka "Shakro the Young", the most notorious Russian Yezidi mobster

Check out his palace. Crazy...

But, anyway, back to the subject, so this guy, Viktor, he accumulated lots of wealth. Unfortunately, though, his health had issues. He had some weird disease and finally died from it, back in 2011. He had a son, Vladimir. A hard drinker and general failure in life.

After his dad passed away, Vladimir let some other people, outsiders, take over all his companies; and set about wasting his father's money on alcohol, girls, and just living large, basically. The party went on nonstop. Until the money ran out. Then, all his new "friends" and girlfriends, who were only with him for all that cash, quickly vanished. Along the way, he had gambled away even his dad's apartment in Moscow, where he'd been living (put down huge bets in some mafia-run underground casino, and, of course, lost it all, and then owed a lot of money and ended up in a situation where either he gave up the apartment to them, or gave up his life, literally, those guys don't joke around).

Basically, everything was gone, he ended up on the street. Long story short, he went down underground into the Metro and jumped under a train.

That was the end of that story... That's what happens, when you don't teach your son how to respect and properly care for your wealth after you're gone...

 

[Rasselas]

Thats sort of a cop out isnt it at some point? Its not like the brain is a switch and turns on or off at a given age. Some might be at full function by age 22 and others not until 26. Plus if one is an adult at 18 legally, then that should be the age for everything. This arbitrary, cant drink until 21, cant rent a car until 25 is just postponing adulthood. Pick an age and stick with it. Most 16 year olds dont behave this way yet this one did. That tells me it is this individual that has the problem not the age.

His age isn't a cause or an excuse. His age should mean that our response to his crime, even if it is egregious, should take into account that he isn't fully formed.

 

[Rasselas]

My point was, a teenager can, absolutely, make own big decisions, just as much as adults.

The reason the onus, IMHO, the responsibility, is on the male, is because, if we are being honest, males initiate most sexual encounters. It's the truth. It is human nature. The males are the seekers of the sexual pleasure. The females are the ones who are sought. Not other way around. Always has been that way.

I have no problem with what you've said here, but it doesn't really contradict my point. Teenagers make many poor decisions, are impetuous and impulsive, imagine themselves less vulnerable than they are, and their emotions are more volatile than those of adults. Adolescence is also the most creative part of life--and the most adaptable.

It's that adaptability I think we should take advantage of--even when the adolescent commits a crime. The decision about how to charge a child should derive from an evaluation of his or her psychology rather than the crime. Our reactions to crime are often emotional rather than reasoned.