Let's go to war?

Do you support US military action against Iran?


  • Total voters
    26
Oct 2014
30,444
5,319
C-A-N-A-D-A-Eh
#62
Then why'd he put neocons in charge?
Frankly, that is a very extensive and often debatable question to answer.

There were different groups of people he took on. There were the guides, the actors, the moving targets, the traps, etc... so, really would have to go through person to person.
 

One

Former Staff
Dec 2006
11,807
10,527
----> X <----
#63
No, I didn't say that, YOU did.

I say that Iran is not trustworthy.

I mostly trust our intel people who have said that Iran is likely behind the ship bombings.
The question posed wasn't about if we trust our intelligence community, but whether we trust trump. Of course, like most Americans, I don't. So right off the bat, you question if instead I trust Iran, like it is one or the other who must be trusted.
 
Likes: KnotaFrayed
Jun 2013
17,626
15,180
Here
#64
Do you support military action against Iran based on what you know now? If not, what would make you support it?

  • "Diversionary theory, also known as the "scapegoat hypothesis", suggests the politically powerful may use war to as a diversion or to rally domestic popular support.[130]:152 This is supported by literature showing out-group hostility enhances in-group bonding, and a significant domestic "rally effect" has been demonstrated when conflicts begin.[130]:152–13 However, studies examining the increased use of force as a function of need for internal political support are more mixed.[130]:152–53 U.S. war-time presidential popularity surveys taken during the presidencies of several recent U.S. leaders have supported diversionary theory.[131]"
War - Wikipedia


Does Trump need some diversion about now? You betcha!


Are Trump and his administration's claims, legit? Are they ever?

US claims of Iran threat to coalition forces in Middle East rejected by British general
US claims of Iran threat to coalition forces in Middle East rejected by British general
 

Rasselas

Former Staff
Feb 2010
69,095
44,812
valid location
#65
Will someone please show them a relief map of Iran? The place is filled with mountains and millions upon millions of people. It would take an army of a million strong to even make a dent in them. And here is the real rub, they have not invaded a nation in eons, not one nation. Sure they huff and puff but that is simply bravado like Saddam did. Does anyone over there understand the cultures of the ME? My lord, we are doomed.
They learned their lesson at Thermopylae!

Actually, the won that land battle, but then the Greeks retreated to the sea and destroyed the Persian fleet in the difficult waters in the gulfs around Greece. The Persians withdrew to Asia Minor and never tried again. That was the fifth century BC.
 
Jul 2014
35,595
9,328
midwest
#66
The question posed wasn't about if we trust our intelligence community, but whether we trust trump. Of course, like most Americans, I don't. So right off the bat, you question if instead I trust Iran, like it is one or the other who must be trusted.
In my opinion, neither must be trusted.

Without knowing more particulars about this situation, I would trust Trump more than Iran.
 

Rasselas

Former Staff
Feb 2010
69,095
44,812
valid location
#67
In my opinion, neither must be trusted.

Without knowing more particulars about this situation, I would trust Trump more than Iran.
That's a false dichotomy. Since when are the Iranians consulted at all about American policy? On the other hand, Congress has a role to play when it comes to armed conflict--they have to approve it.
 

The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
44,658
31,217
Toronto
#69
Will someone please show them a relief map of Iran? The place is filled with mountains and millions upon millions of people. It would take an army of a million strong to even make a dent in them. And here is the real rub, they have not invaded a nation in eons, not one nation. Sure they huff and puff but that is simply bravado like Saddam did. Does anyone over there understand the cultures of the ME? My lord, we are doomed.
FWIW, just based on accounts I have read from Russian special ops and such guys, who had fought alongside the Iranians in Syria...

Let's put it this way, the Russians don't have much respect for the Iranians as warriors.

Look, they managed to lose like at least a dozen GENERALS over there (Syria), and many more regular troops, by ISIS and other opponents.

Only more or less worthy fighters among that whole Shia group, according, again, to those Russians, are the Lebanese Hezbollah. Those one have serious combat spirit, and skills too. The Afghan and Pakistani Fatemyun militias are basically useless. The Russians despise them as undisciplined cowards, multiple times they were sent in against, for example, ISIS in Albukamal area (East Syria), and ISIS ended up kicking their ass and then Russians had to go in themselves to bail them the fuck out...

I dare say majority of the forces at Iran's disposal would be little better than that.

That's the point though, Iran is no real threat. The Saudis (and Israelis) are blowing up an ant into an elephant here...
 
Jun 2013
17,626
15,180
Here
#70
Several things:

One, most Muslim Iranians are Shi'ites and they and Daesh/ISIL don't see eye to eye......In fact, Iran was helping rid Iraq and Syria of ISIL......They do not want Sunni Muslims at their doorstep.

"The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL /ˈaɪsəl, ˈaɪsɪl/), also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS /ˈaɪsɪs/),[69] officially as the Islamic State (IS), and by its Arabic language acronym Daesh (Arabic: داعش‎, romanized: dāʿish, IPA: [ˈdaːʕɪʃ]),[70][71] is a Salafi jihadist militant group and former unrecognised proto-state[72] that follows a fundamentalist, Salafi doctrine of Sunni Islam.[73][74] ISIL gained global prominence in early 2014 when it drove Iraqi government forces out of key cities in its Western Iraq offensive,[75] followed by its capture of Mosul[76] and the Sinjar massacre.[77] "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant


"According to Sunni traditions, Muhammad did not clearly designate a successor and the Muslim community acted according to his sunnah in electing his father-in-law Abu Bakr as the first caliph.[3] This contrasts with the Shia view, which holds that Muhammad announced his son-in-law and cousin Ali ibn Abi Talib as his successor, most notably at Ghadir Khumm.[4][5][6][7][8] Political tensions between Sunnis and Shias continued with varying intensity throughout Islamic history and have been exacerbated in recent times by ethnic conflicts and the rise of Wahhabism.[3] "
Sunni Islam - Wikipedia


"The Islamic conquest of Persia (637–651) led to the end of the Sasanian Empire and the eventual decline of the Zoroastrian religion in Persia. However, the achievements of the previous Persian civilizations were not lost, but were to a great extent absorbed by the new Islamic polity. Islam has been the official religion of Iran since then, except for a short duration after the Mongol raids and establishment of Ilkhanate. Iran became an Islamic republic after the Islamic Revolution of 1979."

"Before the Islamic conquest, the Persians had been mainly Zoroastrian; however, there were also large and thriving Christian and Jewish communities, especially in the territories of at that time northwestern, western, and southern Iran, mainly Caucasian Albania, Asōristān, Persian Armenia, and Caucasian Iberia. There was a slow but steady movement of the population toward Islam. When Islam was introduced to Iranians, the nobility and city-dwellers were the first to convert, Islam spread more slowly among the peasantry and the dehqans, or landed gentry. By the late 11th century, the majority of Persians had become Muslim, at least nominally."

"Iran's population is about 82,000,000 people,[2] and Islam is the religion of 5% of Iranians. Nearly 4.99% of Iranians are Shi'a and about 0.01% are Sunni. Most Sunnis in Iran are Kurds, Larestani people (from Larestan), Turkomen, and Baluchs, living in the northwest, northeast, south, and southeast.[1] Almost all of Iranian Shi'as are Twelvers."

"Though Iran is known today as a stronghold of the Shi'a Muslim faith, it did not become so until much later, around the 15th century. The Safavid dynasty made Shi'a Islam the official state religion in the early sixteenth century and aggressively proselytized on its behalf. It is also believed that by the mid-seventeenth century most people in Iran and the territory of the contemporary neighboring Republic of Azerbaijan had become Shi'as,[3] an affiliation that has continued. Over the following centuries, with the state-fostered rise of a Persian-based Shi'ite clergy, a synthesis was formed between Persian culture and Shi'ite Islam that marked each indelibly with the tincture of the other."
Islam in Iran - Wikipedia


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I also have some very anglo-saxon friends who lived in Iran for a number of years as members of the U.S. military or the State Department. They and others have said Iran was not only a very sophisticated nation (before and compared to a fair number of others in the ME) and most of the Iranian people actually like the better features of America and Americans. American interference in their politics (1953 Coup and Iran-Contra to name a few) and in more recent times, sanctions, both before and after the "Iran Deal" have not helped to strengthen views of the U.S.

CIA Confirms Role in 1953 Iran Coup
CIA Confirms Role in 1953 Iran Coup

Iran–Contra affair
Iran–Contra affair - Wikipedia

From 1979
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...68e21a1/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.79a966df1f0f

The "Iran Deal" was intended to work on regaining trust and to diffuse, rather than exacerbate mistrust and foment dislike of the U.S..
Iranian frozen assets - Wikipedia

Iran has become a convenient scapegoat for U.S, politicians looking for a diversion from affairs that are troublesome to them and without Iran, the same politicians would have to find another scapegoat to call "the greatest exporter of terrorism in the ME, if not the world" that few, if any terrorists, actually come from and the nation we seem to use, as a reason to invade other nations, not it.

Likely Trump will be no different than those in the past that have used Iran as a scapegoat as we sell arms to the Sunni Muslims in Saudi Arabia, a monarchy and one of the strictest Muslim states in the world and where 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9-11-01 came from and the native land of Osama Bin Laden.....

Hijackers in the September 11 attacks - Wikipedia

While Trump does not seem to have trouble accepting medals of honor from the Muslim Saudi ruler, he otherwise appears to suggest, even foment a degree of targeted bigotry toward other Muslims, both in his immigration policies and his speech. It is quite interesting to see how he works a "friendship" with North Korea and its leader, while demonizing Iran.
 
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