Man goes to Prison for Home Defense with an “unregistered gun.”

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
76,546
45,723
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
Nope. It being an administrative offense is also beyond acceptable. Is there ANY other right you have to register for? It isn’t a right if you have to register to legally have.
That is absolutely wrong and makes no sense.
“Public safety” is an invalid argument when it comes to a right.
No, it is not, and in fact it makes no sense.
When I cannot own it without registering for fear of being a criminal otherwise?
An administrative offense is, by definition, not a crime.
 
Dec 2018
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That is absolutely wrong and makes no sense.
Sure it does. Registering for a right means it is not a right. It is a privilege. Privileges are granted and an immunity given conditionally by the government. A right is inherent.

If a law exists that creates a conditional basis for exercise of an action? Then by the very definition it is a privilege and not a right. And those are mutually exclusive terms.

An administrative offense is, by definition, not a crime.
Then there is NO punishment or consequence I would face for totally ignoring said offense?
 

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
76,546
45,723
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
Registering for a right means it is not a right. It is a privilege.
That is incorrect. Your right to own is not conditional upon registering. The registration requirement is merely a responsibility that accompanies ownership.

Besides, some privileges are absolute - e.g., one has a privilege against self-incrimination that can never be taken away. But others, like habeas corpus, is not absolute and can be suspended by Congress. The word "privilege" does not, in a legal context, mean what you are saying, here.
Then there is NO punishment or consequence I would face for totally ignoring said offense?
An administrative offense, or violation, typically comes with a monetary penalty - i.e., a fine. Only crimes can result in the threat of or actual imprisonment. E.g., parking illegally is an offense, but not a crime.
 
Dec 2018
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1,820
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That is incorrect. Your right to own is not conditional upon registering. The registration requirement is merely a responsibility that accompanies ownership.
It doesn’t matter how you phrase the conditional requirement. If I ignored the condition...I face punishment. Thus I do not have a right. I have a privilege. I cannot have a conditional right. A right where...in order to have use of...I must meet an arbitrary standard. A right is a MUCH higher standard. There is no right where you have to meet a condition to use. It wouldn’t be a right otherwise. As you are saying here:

An administrative offense, or violation, typically comes with a monetary penalty - i.e., a fine. Only crimes can result in the threat of or actual imprisonment. E.g., parking illegally is an offense, but not a crime.
And so I have to ask? What happens if I ignore that punishment? What happens to me? Because I’m not going to pay a fine for failing to do something that is conditional for me to have my right.

Besides, some privileges are absolute - e.g., one has a privilege against self-incrimination that can never be taken away. But others, like habeas corpus, is not absolute and can be suspended by Congress. The word "privilege" does not, in a legal context, mean what you are saying, here.
I think issue here is not MY understanding of the word privilege. The issue here is the understanding of right. I’m sure we BOTH agree that we have a right to keep and bear arms. The question is what is the legal limit to which the government can impose upon said right?

And if the government is stating: “register your right or be punished...” then how is that a right?
 

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
76,546
45,723
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
It doesn’t matter how you phrase the conditional requirement.
It is not a "conditional requirement." No matter how you say it, you are not being punished for having a gun, or being prohibited from having one.
I cannot have a conditional right.
This makes no sense. No right is unlimited. You are arguing that it is.
And so I have to ask? What happens if I ignore that punishment? What happens to me?
Garnishment of wages, bank accounts, tax refunds. Such things would be starters, at least.
I’m sure we BOTH agree that we have a right to keep and bear arms. The question is what is the legal limit to which the government can impose upon said right?
Yes. No right is unlimited, or illimitable.
And if the government is stating: “register your right or be punished...” then how is that a right?
You are not required to "register your right." Your right to own is not being infringed upon. You merely have to register the weapon. Now, if the government could deprive you of the weapon simply on account of failure to register ... that would be an infringement, as with any civil asset forfeiture (not quite the same thing, but related).
 
Dec 2018
4,821
1,820
Florida
It is not a "conditional requirement." No matter how you say it, you are not being punished for having a gun, or being prohibited from having one.
Yes. It is. Can I have a gun?

“Yes, but only if you register it.”

“Can I own one without registering it?”

“No. Or else...”

That is a conditional requirement. Period. And I will be punished if I do not follow said requirement.

This makes no sense. No right is unlimited. You are arguing that it is.
I’m arguing that a right is not conditional. This has nothing to do with the discussion of “unlimited rights.” Which is in and of itself a dangerous discussion that was used to justify things like the alien and seditious acts. Violations of the first.

I’m arguing that a right is not GIVEN to a citizen. It isn’t granted. It isn’t able to be used predicated on a “condition” that is granted by the government. It is a right. A right is a limit on governmental authority. In this case? That limit would be “registration.”




Garnishment of wages, bank accounts, tax refunds. Such things would be starters, at least.
So i cannot own a gun without registering it, or else I face consequences. Legal consequences. Punishment. Conditional requirement of the ownership of arms.

Yes. No right is unlimited, or illimitable.
The burden to limit is to be much higher than a mere driver’s license or other privilege. We have an amendment process for a reason. But those who seek to limit said rights...are not able to get enough support to do so.

You are not required to "register your right." Your right to own is not being infringed upon. You merely have to register the weapon.
So in order to own, I have to register. I am not legally allowed to own without registering.

Now, if the government could deprive you of the weapon simply on account of failure to register ... that would be an infringement, as with any civil asset forfeiture (not quite the same thing, but related).
So I can ignore their attempt force me to register? Or will they punish me for failing to comply? If The answer is yes they will punish me (through ANY pressure financially or otherwise)...that is a deprivation of arms due to the demand I meet a conditional requirement to have my right.

The only justifiable way to deprive someone of arms is through due process. If someone cannot be trusted...then THEY should be registered as a danger. Not me.
 

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
76,546
45,723
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
That is a conditional requirement. Period. And I will be punished if I do not follow said requirement.
No. You are not punished for having a gun, and you are not being prohibited from having a gun. You cannot spin that away.
I’m arguing that a right is not conditional. This has nothing to do with the discussion of “unlimited rights.”
Yes, it does. You are claiming that a right is per se and by definition unrestricted and unlimited. That is not accurate.
The only justifiable way to deprive someone of arms is through due process.
A fine for failure to register does not deprive you of the weapon.
 
Dec 2018
4,821
1,820
Florida
No. You are not punished for having a gun, and you are not being prohibited from having a gun. You cannot spin that away.
For having a gun? No. For having an “unregistered gun” yes. And again. The issue is that one must register for a right. It is a conditional requirement to have the right. That would make it not a right.

Yes, it does. You are claiming that a right is per se and by definition unrestricted and unlimited. That is not accurate.
Our constitution is clear that rights are limits on government authority. They recognize rights as not granted. But I’m not stating they are unlimited. You keep insisting I’m saying that. Not that that matters BECAUSE...you are stating that a registration would not be a conditional requirement for a right. It would be. I’d be deprived of my right if I did not register.

A fine for failure to register does not deprive you of the weapon.
And what happens if I refuse to pay the fine? End of day? It is because at some point if I fail to comply with the registration or the laws...I will be punished. It isn’t a harmless law. At some point someone will force me to comply or suffer consequences.