Police Investigators Determined Officer Choked Eric Garner

Jul 2011
62,002
12,513
“Stay Down”
#21
At worst it would be involuntary. There is no way this cop intended to kill Garner.

I suspect you are right, most will form their own opinions. At this state of it, they are right to do so.

Dude was selling cigarettes.


Single, loose cigarettes. he was in the system, they could have told him a fine was coming in the mail,.
 
Feb 2010
34,514
24,425
between Moon and NYC
#23
At worst it would be involuntary. There is no way this cop intended to kill Garner.

I suspect you are right, most will form their own opinions. At this state of it, they are right to do so.

Dude was selling cigarettes.
Imagine that the fact the "dude was only selling cigarettes" will get an amount of attention.

Don't know how relevant that is to the result. The event progressed through a series of steps which led to an attempted arrest. At which time Garner fought the officers. At that point the officers have crossed a threshold and sort of have a commitment to see it through. I think. Don't know police protocol but i am not seeing a situation where they would back off a resisting suspect because of the underlying offense.

The issue was resisting arrest....not selling the loosies.

Not trying to suggest there was no wrong doing on the part of the cops. Just that there are complexities to the overall arrest.




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Chief

Former Staff
Nov 2009
32,797
20,521
SoCal
#24
Eric Gardner died of a heart attack in the back of an ambulance. He wasn't choked to death. And he was grossly overweight contributing to the cardiac arrest.

So that will probably be part of the equation when the prosecutor considers pressing murder charges.




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Isn't that related? Once a person has been injured by deprivation of oxygen, I am guessing that other things that he would be susceptible to, may start happening due to his injured state. That's just a wild guess though.
 
Feb 2010
34,514
24,425
between Moon and NYC
#25
Isn't that related? Once a person has been injured by deprivation of oxygen, I am guessing that other things that he would be susceptible to, may start happening due to his injured state. That's just a wild guess though.
From some of the other posts is sounds like you are correct.






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The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
46,541
33,836
Toronto
#26
Your cops need Sambo training.

Sambo is like the ultimate MMA discipline, it teaches everything: punching, kicking, grappling, throwing, holds & bars & blocks, the whole works


In Russia (and other ex-Soviet countries), all cops have to study it, and plenty are tournament champions and even Masters of Sport in it (specifically, Combat Sambo, i.e. the version with the punches and kicks; while the regular athletic Sambo is only wrestling)


Sambo would teach you how to restrain someone on the ground, with arm and leg bars and such, without fucking choking them to death...


Plus, unlike many classic wrestling and grappling disciplines, lots of moves in Sambo (originally developed specifically for police and KGB in Soviet Union) are tailored particularly for grabbing and subduing fully clothes opponents wearing thick jackets and such, in non-gym settings


Perfect martial art for law enforcement; even Mexican cops are now learning it, actually, to bring it closer to home
:)

Of course, too many American cops would rather die than do physical exercise, or, perhaps, would die from the exercise itself, I get that

;)
 
Jul 2011
62,002
12,513
“Stay Down”
#28
Imagine that the fact the "dude was only selling cigarettes" will get an amount of attention.

Don't know how relevant that is to the result. The event progressed through a series of steps which led to an attempted arrest. At which time Garner fought the officers. At that point the officers have crossed a threshold and sort of have a commitment to see it through. I think. Don't know police protocol but i am not seeing a situation where they would back off a resisting suspect because of the underlying offense.

The issue was resisting arrest....not selling the loosies.

Not trying to suggest there was no wrong doing on the part of the cops. Just that there are complexities to the overall arrest.




..



Police never should have affected arrest in this case. It's a trivial fine that's all.
 
Likes: The Man

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
75,928
44,892
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
#29
Garner having asthma and obesity do not help the officer's case. The principle in tort law is the "thin skull rule." The relevant case (I could dig it up with some effort) involved a lawsuit against an assailant who hit someone over the head who had a thin skull due to a medical condition. The defendant claimed he should only be responsible for the damage that would have been created versus a person with a normal skull. The court rejected that argument. In the context of the present case, the officer would have to take Garner as he found him - overweight and asthmatic.

The way it could be relevant is as to the officer's intent. He knew Garner was overweight; but if he had known Garner was asthmatic, he could argue he might have acted differently, and the jury would have to make that decision. (This is assuming the judge allows that as a defense.) The issues are going to be whether the officer intended to kill Garner. He probably did not, meaning we would be looking at manslaughter rather than murder. On the other hand, if the officer was committing a felony against Garner, and Garner died as a result, it could still be murder and not manslaughter.

This is just off the top of my head. It has been a long time since I have had to consider cases like this; I never have professionally, and have not reviewed the relevant statutes in this case. I am just making a couple educated guesses, here.
 
Jul 2011
62,002
12,513
“Stay Down”
#30
Garner having asthma and obesity do not help the officer's case. The principle in tort law is the "thin skull rule." The relevant case (I could dig it up with some effort) involved a lawsuit against an assailant who hit someone over the head who had a thin skull due to a medical condition. The defendant claimed he should only be responsible for the damage that would have been created versus a person with a normal skull. The court rejected that argument. In the context of the present case, the officer would have to take Garner as he found him - overweight and asthmatic.

The way it could be relevant is as to the officer's intent. He knew Garner was overweight; but if he had known Garner was asthmatic, he could argue he might have acted differently, and the jury would have to make that decision. (This is assuming the judge allows that as a defense.) The issues are going to be whether the officer intended to kill Garner. He probably did not, meaning we would be looking at manslaughter rather than murder. On the other hand, if the officer was committing a felony against Garner, and Garner died as a result, it could still be murder and not manslaughter.

This is just off the top of my head. It has been a long time since I have had to consider cases like this; I never have professionally, and have not reviewed the relevant statutes in this case. I am just making a couple educated guesses, here.


The officer is in a worse case here, you cannot observe a thin skull, he could clearly see gsrner was in poor health