Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil?

Sep 2013
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#1
Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil?

Religions tout themselves as being the final word in moral issues, even though secular law has rejected as too barbaric most of those laws. Not that they were original to Christianity as many of the older traditions had variants of the same laws.

To me, a moral god would cure and never kill. That is the position Jesus took towards the non-believers.

Jesus said to love all people including your enemies and if Jesus is Yahweh then he too must love all and save all just as Jesus would.

Jesus would say that God killing instead of curing is evil.

Jesus would say that God curing instead of killing is good.

If god cures instead of killing then there is no hell as a good god or Jesus would have no use for purposeless torture and death.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL
 
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#2
Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil?
Given God is defined by the Bible, it is a bit awkward that the Bible condones the owning of other people as property. Hebrew slaves were treated nicely (for the most part) but non-Hebrew slaves were bought, sold, beaten and passed as inheritance all with the knowledge and approval of the biblical God.

This argues poorly for the God of the Bible being the arbiter of objective morality. And this is but one example.
 
Sep 2013
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#3
Given God is defined by the Bible, it is a bit awkward that the Bible condones the owning of other people as property. Hebrew slaves were treated nicely (for the most part) but non-Hebrew slaves were bought, sold, beaten and passed as inheritance all with the knowledge and approval of the biblical God.

This argues poorly for the God of the Bible being the arbiter of objective morality. And this is but one example.
One of many for sure.

Do not change your morals my friend. No one should think like Christians and Muslims do.

Regards
DL
 
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Jul 2019
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#4
Funny though that there are morals attributed to Christianity that are indeed good while others (largely inherited from the OT which is implicitly and awkwardly interwoven into Christianity by virtue of Jesus' support for old Hebrew laws and in spite of the old covenant / new covenant apologetics) are horrid.

Net, the Bible (and the Qur'an) is not where one should go to find good mores and values. Modern morality is something that has evolved with humankind and is substantially better nowadays (at least in most cultures) than the bronze and iron age morality of biblical times.

( Which of the 10 commandments states: thou shalt not own another human being as property? )
 
Sep 2013
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#5
Funny though that there are morals attributed to Christianity that are indeed good while others (largely inherited from the OT which is implicitly and awkwardly interwoven into Christianity by virtue of Jesus' support for old Hebrew laws and in spite of the old covenant / new covenant apologetics) are horrid.

Net, the Bible (and the Qur'an) is not where one should go to find good mores and values. Modern morality is something that has evolved with humankind and is substantially better nowadays (at least in most cultures) than the bronze and iron age morality of biblical times.

( Which of the 10 commandments states: thou shalt not own another human being as property? )
I hear and like.

I do not give the N.T. the partial praise you do.

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

I also particularly dislike Jesus' no divorce for women views and his substitutional punishment policy.
This poet also speak to the failings in morality that Jesus taught.


The above refers to the Rome created Jesus. The more esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christian Jesus I do not mind.
His words I happily quote.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

Regards
DL
 
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#6
The credit I give to the NT Jesus is the spirit of his message: 'love thy neighbor'. There are plenty of specifics to criticize, but the view that most Christians have of Jesus (whether or not it is properly supported by scripture) is a good thing.

That said, I think people would be far better off not cherry-picking and sanitizing the Bible (and the Qur'an) but rather view these as quaint ancient books written by ancient men for ancient agendas. Instead, we should use our modern minds (with evolved mores and values) and our modern understanding of reality (largely through science) to guide us in terms of morality and in pondering what, if anything, reality means.

If there is a creator entity (a god) then nobody knows anything about this entity, why it created us, what plans (if any) it has for us. A creator entity is logically possible and if people prefer to think there 'must be' a greater sentient power then that is fine. But let us all apply 2019 reasoning and not presume to know that which one could not possibly know.
 
Sep 2013
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#7
That said, I think people would be far better off not cherry-picking and sanitizing the Bible (and the Qur'an) but rather view these as quaint ancient books written by ancient men for ancient agendas.
I disagree with this bit.

The bible is a consolidation of many of the older belief and thinking system and was compiled to show some of the wisdom sayings of those days. It has been corrupted over time for agendas as you say, but to not cherry pick the few better wisdom sayings would be to lose them unless you know where the original saying came from.

I have read some of such wisdom saying books from other diciplines and traditions and they too can only be cherry picked for things that apply to us.

I am an esoteric ecumenist and will cherry pick wisdom wherever I find it. I seek god by seeking the best rules and laws to live by and think that that is the best type of ideology. It prevents idol worshiping.

Regards
DL
 
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Jul 2019
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#8
I disagree with this bit.

The bible is a consolidation of many of the older belief and thinking system and was compiled to show some of the wisdom sayings of those days. It has been corrupted over time for agendas as you say, but to not cherry pick the few better wisdom sayings would be to lose them unless you know where the original saying came from.

I have read some of such wisdom saying books from other diciplines and traditions and they too can only be cherry picked for things that apply to us.

I am an esoteric ecumenist and will cherry pick wisdom wherever I find it. I seek god by seeking the best rules and laws to live by and think that that is the best type of ideology. It prevents idol worshiping.

Regards
DL
Cherry-pick the good stuff as ancient human wisdom. That is very different from considering the Bible divine and only viewing the good while ignoring the bad. As I noted, the Bible (Qur'an, etc.) viewed as the writings of ancient men is fine; the problem is when those writings are viewed as divine. Worse is to cherry-pick and present only acceptable material as divine while brushing the bad under the rug.
 
Sep 2013
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192
Canada
#9
Cherry-pick the good stuff as ancient human wisdom. That is very different from considering the Bible divine and only viewing the good while ignoring the bad. As I noted, the Bible (Qur'an, etc.) viewed as the writings of ancient men is fine; the problem is when those writings are viewed as divine. Worse is to cherry-pick and present only acceptable material as divine while brushing the bad under the rug.
No argument on this.

I do not recognize anything as divine as that label can only be given by humans and we have no real idea of what it means to be dive, god or any of the other labels we give the unknown which was to stay mysterious as far as the theological intelligentsia of ancient days before literalism reared it's ugly dumbing down head.

We Gnostic Christians do not ignore the evils in any scriptures and that is why Christianity sent so many inquisitions to wipe us out.

The moral truth of their vile immoral religion was not to be spoken.

Regards
DL
 
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#10
The credit I give to the NT Jesus is the spirit of his message: 'love thy neighbor'. There are plenty of specifics to criticize, but the view that most Christians have of Jesus (whether or not it is properly supported by scripture) is a good thing.

That said, I think people would be far better off not cherry-picking and sanitizing the Bible (and the Qur'an) but rather view these as quaint ancient books written by ancient men for ancient agendas. Instead, we should use our modern minds (with evolved mores and values) and our modern understanding of reality (largely through science) to guide us in terms of morality and in pondering what, if anything, reality means.

If there is a creator entity (a god) then nobody knows anything about this entity, why it created us, what plans (if any) it has for us. A creator entity is logically possible and if people prefer to think there 'must be' a greater sentient power then that is fine. But let us all apply 2019 reasoning and not presume to know that which one could not possibly know.
The Jesus character was a bigot. Since he didn't have a home did he have any neighbors? He was always free-loading off of his rich groupies. He told his disciples to avoid Samaritans and Gentiles and he wasn't too fond of Pharisees.
 

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