Proving once again, liberals hate achievment...

Jan 2014
18,141
5,160
California
#71
"Liberals hate achievement"? They do?

Before Obama, Asian Americans voted Republican. The GOP wants to bring them back.
In the 1992 presidential election, 55 percent of Asian Americans voted Republican. In 2016, 65 percent voted for the Democrat.
Before Obama, Asian Americans voted Republican. The GOP wants to bring them back.

Give thanks that Founding Fathers were liberals
Give thanks that Founding Fathers were liberals


"Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education & free discussion are the antidotes of both."
-Thomas Jefferson - Letter to John Adams (1 August 1816)

"Your sect by its sufferings has furnished a remarkable proof of the universal spirit of religious intolerance inherent in every sect, disclaimed by all while feeble, and practiced by all when in power. Our laws have applied the only antidote to this vice, protecting our religious, as they do our civil rights, by putting all on an equal footing. But more remains to be done, for although we are free by the law, we are not so in practice. Public opinion erects itself into an inquisition, and exercises its office with as much fanaticism as fans the flames of an Auto-da-fé. The prejudice still scowling on your section of our religion altho' the elder one, cannot be unfelt by ourselves. It is to be hoped that individual dispositions will at length mould themselves to the model of the law, and consider the moral basis, on which all our religions rest, as the rallying point which unites them in a common interest; while the peculiar dogmas branching from it are the exclusive concern of the respective sects embracing them, and no rightful subject of notice to any other. Public opinion needs reformation on that point, which would have the further happy effect of doing away the hypocritical maxim of "intus et lubet, foris ut moris". Nothing, I think, would be so likely to effect this, as to your sect particularly, as the more careful attention to education, which you recommend, and which, placing its members on the equal and commanding benches of science, will exhibit them as equal objects of respect and favor."
-
Thomas Jefferson to Mordecai M. Noah, May 28, 1818. Manuscript Division, Papers of Thomas Jefferson.

"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."
-Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to William Charles Jarvis (28 September 1820)

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."
Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Du Pont de Nemours (April 24, 1816)

"Freedom of the press, subject only to liability for personal injuries. This formidable censor of the public functionaries, by arraigning them at the tribunal of public opinion, produces reform peaceably, which must otherwise be done by revolution. It is also the best instrument for enlightening the mind of man, and improving him as a rational, moral, and social being."
-Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to A. Coray a.k.a. Adamantios Koraes (31 October 1823)

"The liberal appropriations made by the Legislature of Kentucky for a general system of Education cannot be too much applauded. A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."
Image 1 of James Madison to W. T. Barry, August 4, 1822.


"Liberalism became a distinct movement in the Age of Enlightenment, when it became popular among Western philosophers and economists. Liberalism sought to replace the norms of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, the divine right of kings and traditional conservatism with representative democracy and the rule of law. Liberals also ended mercantilist policies, royal monopolies and other barriers to trade, instead promoting free markets.[11]Philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct tradition, arguing that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property,[12] adding that governments must not violate these rights based on the social contract. While the British liberal tradition has emphasised expanding democracy, French liberalism has emphasised rejecting authoritarianism and is linked to nation-building."
Liberalism - Wikipedia

Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia


AREN'T YOU, DONNY TRUMP and all TRUMP "CONSERVATIVES" supposed to hate highly educated "ELITES"????? When did y'all begin to care about intelligence, over greed, gluttony, adultery, lying, narcissism and a host other things you seem to support as current "American values", reflected by the nation's leader?
Mr. knot,

and by the way, we all did notice you responded to the top post with a dishonest non sequitur.
 
Sep 2017
5,469
6,536
Massachusetts
#72
Mr. Arkady,

Academic and artistic talent are two different things. They work off of two different hemispheres of the brain.
Not really. Both light up both areas of the brain, albeit in different ways and different proportions.

One relies on IQ, the other on artistic acumen. That being said, you indicate that you had a knack for math and languages, not a true talent. If you had a true talent for either, you would not just be proficient, but rather fluent in both.
I'm not interested in semantic arguments. If you want to invent a new definition for "true talent" which requires fluency in those two things, have at it. Either way, you completely missed the point. The point was to show how much better I was at an area of endeavor where I started out less naturally gifted (languages), versus an area where I started out much more naturally gifted (math). Simply due to decades of practicing more at the former than the latter, I effectively rewired my brain.

It's a bit like a a physical skill, as well. I'm a natural weightlifter and not a natural runner. If I let myself go to pot for a year without much exercise, I can still go into a gym and out-lift 90% of the men there, because my body just likes to hold onto a lot of muscle mass, even when I'm not training it. By comparison, after a period like that, I won't be able to run even a single ten minute mile, because I'm a fast-twitch type with a heavy body and crap cardiovascular fitness unless I train. My brother is the other way. He can stop running for years and still go out and do a 5k in 30 minutes without much effort, whereas he quickly becomes a skinny weakling if he's not lifting all the time. Yet there have been points when I was a good runner and not very strong, because I'd spent a year training for a marathon, and at the moment my brother is carrying an extra 30 pounds of chiseled muscle because he lifts like a fiend and eats huge amounts of protein, for that purpose. In the end, the effort matters more than the natural tendency.

And my example still stands. Mozart was drilled intensely by his father at 5 because by age 3 he begin playing the piano on his own listening to his sister practice. He begin writing small pieces on his own soon afterwards, and by age 10, he had written a symphony. Also when he was young, he heard a cloistered piece in the Vatican twice, and went on to transcribe it from memory. Practice is one thing, in which you will master the mechanics. Anybody can eventually learn how to play notes as written. True talent creates the notes.
I'm willing to accept a person will never get to the level of a Mozart without starting with a huge capacity for greatness. But if we're not talking a once-per-century type talent, or even a one-in-a-million kind of talent, but rather the one-in-ten-thousand types who make up the majority of pro artists at any given time, I think the majority of people could get to that level with enough effort.
 
Likes: BigBob
Sep 2017
5,469
6,536
Massachusetts
#73
"Liberals hate achievement"? They do?
Kind of funny, no? Liberals embraced Obama, for example, whose amazing achievements included being born in a discriminated-against minority as an immigrant's kid in a broken family and yet growing up to be head of the Harvard Law Review and eventually president of the United States. Bill Clinton was also a big-time achiever, including a Rhodes Scholarship. In fact, very high achievers have a tendency to be liberal. Most of the top scientists are liberal. Most people with graduate degrees are liberal. Most elite artists, actors, directors, and writers are liberal. If you looked at lists of people who had achieved top awards in their fields, like Grammys, Emmys, Oscars, Tonys, Pulitzers, Peabodies, and Nobels, you'd find disproportionate liberals. In fact, this has given rise to such an inferiority complex among conservatives that they attack liberals for elitism on this basis.
 
Jun 2013
18,327
16,101
Here
#74
Mr. Knot,

Case in point. any attempt to tie past thought to today's politics is anachronistic at best, idiotic at worse.
Actually you make the case in point. I was once a Republican, the current neo republican party has little to NO resemblance to that, but for remnant of the extreme John Birch Society, that was on the fringes of most Republican philosophy, until it was reinvented as the "Tea Party" who took Reagan's "permissions" and turned them in to a "greed is good"/"win, even if you have to cheat and lie (a Nixon "legacy") to do".

Most intelligent people can see the changes in the Democratic and Republican parties and where they have not changed. That is why they are intelligent and informed people. Now would you care to show us how the current "conservative" neo republican party presents alignment with the words and thoughts of the founders, presented and how what was presented is false?
 
Jun 2013
18,327
16,101
Here
#75
Kind of funny, no? Liberals embraced Obama, for example, whose amazing achievements included being born in a discriminated-against minority as an immigrant's kid in a broken family and yet growing up to be head of the Harvard Law Review and eventually president of the United States. Bill Clinton was also a big-time achiever, including a Rhodes Scholarship. In fact, very high achievers have a tendency to be liberal. Most of the top scientists are liberal. Most people with graduate degrees are liberal. Most elite artists, actors, directors, and writers are liberal. If you looked at lists of people who had achieved top awards in their fields, like Grammys, Emmys, Oscars, Tonys, Pulitzers, Peabodies, and Nobels, you'd find disproportionate liberals. In fact, this has given rise to such an inferiority complex among conservatives that they attack liberals for elitism on this basis.
Yes, compare those to the "achievements" of Donald J. "privileged childhood/million dollar loan to begin life"/"non-elite", elitist, Trump.

What is it neo republican "conservatives" are always whining about, when it comes to George Soros and the "elite" colleges and universities/institutions? Lack of money or achievement? Or would that be, "liberal teaching"?

Trump wants dumb people to believe he's the smartest person to walk the earth and that elite people are enemies of the American people, all the while bragging about how elite he is, from his transferred to an Ivy League university education, his wealth and just about everything else, about himself.

How on earth does an intelligent human being, working class or otherwise, believe such a conflicted person who presents such a walking contradiction of himself and all he claims to stand for?

Nothing wrong with home schooling and private schools, but for anyone who promotes them as a counter to what some believe to be "liberal" education, as some wish to teach their own dogma without any means for discussion or differing points of view.
 
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Likes: Arkady
Jan 2014
18,141
5,160
California
#76
Actually you make the case in point. I was once a Republican, the current neo republican party has little to NO resemblance to that, but for remnant of the extreme John Birch Society, that was on the fringes of most Republican philosophy, until it was reinvented as the "Tea Party" who took Reagan's "permissions" and turned them in to a "greed is good"/"win, even if you have to cheat and lie (a Nixon "legacy") to do".

Most intelligent people can see the changes in the Democratic and Republican parties and where they have not changed. That is why they are intelligent and informed people. Now would you care to show us how the current "conservative" neo republican party presents alignment with the words and thoughts of the founders, presented and how what was presented is false?
Mr. Knot,

Exactly, just as today's liberals in no way resemble those liberal characteristics you detailed.
 
Jun 2013
18,327
16,101
Here
#77
Yes, compare those to the "achievements" of Donald J. "privileged childhood/million dollar loan to begin life"/"non-elite", elitist, Trump.

What is it neo republican "conservatives" are always whining about, when it comes to George Soros and the "elite" colleges and universities/institutions? Lack of money or achievement? Or would that be, "liberal teaching"?

Trump wants dumb people to believe he's the smartest person to walk the earth and that elite people are enemies of the American people, all the while bragging about how elite he is, from his transferred to an Ivy League university education, his wealth and just about everything else, about himself.

How on earth does an intelligent human being, working class or otherwise, believe such a conflicted person who presents such a walking contradiction of himself and all he claims to stand for?
Mr. knot,

and by the way, we all did notice you responded to the top post with a dishonest non sequitur.
"We all" being who? I noticed you ignored or refused to actually address 95% of my response in favor of trying to deflect to a QUESTION about support for Donald Trump and his views on "elites" while at the same time bragging about how elite he is? I don't know if anyone else noticed that, but anyone can read our posts, including all that you appeared to ignore in favor or using your favorite big words "non sequitur". BTW, what was dishonest about my comments?
 
Jun 2013
18,327
16,101
Here
#78
Mr. Knot,

Exactly, just as today's liberals in no way resemble those liberal characteristics you detailed.
Show us the ways they do NOT resemble those detailed?

"Liberalism became a distinct movement in the Age of Enlightenment, when it became popular among Western philosophers and economists. Liberalism sought to replace the norms of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, the divine right of kings and traditional conservatism with representative democracy and the rule of law. Liberals also ended mercantilist policies, royal monopolies and other barriers to trade, instead promoting free markets.[11]Philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct tradition, arguing that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property,[12] adding that governments must not violate these rights based on the social contract. While the British liberal tradition has emphasised expanding democracy, French liberalism has emphasised rejecting authoritarianism and is linked to nation-building."
Liberalism - Wikipedia
 
Likes: OldGaffer
Jan 2014
18,141
5,160
California
#80
Show us the ways they do NOT resemble those detailed?

"Liberalism became a distinct movement in the Age of Enlightenment, when it became popular among Western philosophers and economists. Liberalism sought to replace the norms of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, the divine right of kings and traditional conservatism with representative democracy and the rule of law. Liberals also ended mercantilist policies, royal monopolies and other barriers to trade, instead promoting free markets.[11]Philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct tradition, arguing that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property,[12] adding that governments must not violate these rights based on the social contract. While the British liberal tradition has emphasised expanding democracy, French liberalism has emphasised rejecting authoritarianism and is linked to nation-building."
Liberalism - Wikipedia
Mr. knot,

The operative word is "sought."