"Reasonable limits" on self defense

The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
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25,764
Toronto
#1
Big issue in Russia, over the years. Just now, yet another interesting case, in Bugulma, in Tatarstan.

Yevgeny Dedanin, a local businessman, who owns a chain shops selling sugar products in the city

was home yesterday with his wife Olesia, and another man, a guest, a family friend. The kids were, fortunately, away at school.

Three men barged into the house, armed with knives and at least one fake replica gun they tried to threaten Yevgeny and the others with; they intended to rob the place, perhaps having learned Yevgeny is a shop owner and figured he is wealthy. Yevgeny's wife ran into another room, while he and the other man started fighting with the invaders. Yevgeny grabbed a knife of his own from the table too.

Long story short, Yevgeny and his friend, who, according to some local info being commented online, are both trained fighters, some kind of ex-military, plus Yevgeny is apparenlty a fan of martial arts; they fairly quickly turned the tables on the unfortunate robbers. Yevgeny himself received a knife wound and a laceration on his head from being struck with the butt of the fake gun; but two of the attackers were stabbed and mortally wounded after being chased outside.

Police detectives look at the corpse of one of the robbers in the drive way


The third guy fled in a car, but was captured by the police not far away



Yevgeny has wondered whether the men could have been sent to his home by business rivals (shit like that happens in Russia, business is cutthroat there, hiring thugs and hitmen on each other is more common than hiring lawyers...). But the attackers, it seems, were not locals, they drove up from neighboring Samara region. More likely, it was a crime of opportunity, they saw a nice, wealthy looking house, and decided to rob it, that too happens there, out in the provinces, lots of violent crime there. Just, they ran into someone they did not expect.

Well, now, while the remaining attacker is to be charged; the authorities are also examining Yevgeny's conduct. While his friend, Eduard, fought only with his fists; Yevgeny did use a knife. They now have to see whether his actions did not surpass that aforementioned reasonable limit on self-defense.
В Бугульме бизнесмен ножами перебил вооруженную банду, защищая дом
Евгений Деданин: «Как я мог поступить?! В мой дом пришли с оружием!»

It kind of is ridiculous there: you have to worry about using more force than allowed, injuring your assailant more than "reasonable", in which case YOU may also go to jail. For example, that guy who shot the other guy in Florida for shoving him, he'd be toast there, he'd go away for many years, for murder, period. Gun cannot be used against unarmed opponents there, period. Even, as in this case, if it is knife vs. knife, they have to see if you kept stabbing the other guy when he wasn't fighting anymore, and shit like that... Insane...

Needless to say the whole community is rallying around Yevgeny. We shall see what happens...
 
Nov 2015
2,200
683
UK
#2
It's routine to do so just to make sure it was reasonable force. Maybe the other guy wasn't close to a knife, was grabbing a knife reasonable when up against two knives and what turned out to be a fake gun etc...
 
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Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
67,556
35,222
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
#3
If someone breaks into your home and attacks you with a deadly weapon (and a knife counts), then the use of deadly force is justified. One cannot be required to retreat from one's home, even if the general rule requires retreat where possible. Russia seems unnecessarily restrictive on this point.
 
Nov 2010
22,475
14,050
#4
Big issue in Russia, over the years. Just now, yet another interesting case, in Bugulma, in Tatarstan.

Yevgeny Dedanin, a local businessman, who owns a chain shops selling sugar products in the city

was home yesterday with his wife Olesia, and another man, a guest, a family friend. The kids were, fortunately, away at school.

Three men barged into the house, armed with knives and at least one fake replica gun they tried to threaten Yevgeny and the others with; they intended to rob the place, perhaps having learned Yevgeny is a shop owner and figured he is wealthy. Yevgeny's wife ran into another room, while he and the other man started fighting with the invaders. Yevgeny grabbed a knife of his own from the table too.

Long story short, Yevgeny and his friend, who, according to some local info being commented online, are both trained fighters, some kind of ex-military, plus Yevgeny is apparenlty a fan of martial arts; they fairly quickly turned the tables on the unfortunate robbers. Yevgeny himself received a knife wound and a laceration on his head from being struck with the butt of the fake gun; but two of the attackers were stabbed and mortally wounded after being chased outside.

Police detectives look at the corpse of one of the robbers in the drive way


The third guy fled in a car, but was captured by the police not far away



Yevgeny has wondered whether the men could have been sent to his home by business rivals (shit like that happens in Russia, business is cutthroat there, hiring thugs and hitmen on each other is more common than hiring lawyers...). But the attackers, it seems, were not locals, they drove up from neighboring Samara region. More likely, it was a crime of opportunity, they saw a nice, wealthy looking house, and decided to rob it, that too happens there, out in the provinces, lots of violent crime there. Just, they ran into someone they did not expect.

Well, now, while the remaining attacker is to be charged; the authorities are also examining Yevgeny's conduct. While his friend, Eduard, fought only with his fists; Yevgeny did use a knife. They now have to see whether his actions did not surpass that aforementioned reasonable limit on self-defense.
В Бугульме бизнесмен ножами перебил вооруженную банду, защищая дом
Евгений Деданин: «Как я мог поступить?! В мой дом пришли с оружием!»

It kind of is ridiculous there: you have to worry about using more force than allowed, injuring your assailant more than "reasonable", in which case YOU may also go to jail. For example, that guy who shot the other guy in Florida for shoving him, he'd be toast there, he'd go away for many years, for murder, period. Gun cannot be used against unarmed opponents there, period. Even, as in this case, if it is knife vs. knife, they have to see if you kept stabbing the other guy when he wasn't fighting anymore, and shit like that... Insane...

Needless to say the whole community is rallying around Yevgeny. We shall see what happens...
"that guy who shot the other guy in Florida for shoving him, he'd be toast there, he'd go away for many years, for murder, period " I know its not your point, but htat guy in Florida should go for murder in that case. Being shoved doesn't warrant killing someone, particularly when the shovee was instigating shit and talking shit to the shovers wife. It wasn't shove and pounce.

I also think if you run after someone who broke in your house and hunt them down and shoot them while running, that's no longer self defense. From the looks of it, the guy was likely fleeing the house, therefore, its no longer self defense. Although, i would think the prosecuter would go lightly in that case
 

The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
39,611
25,764
Toronto
#5
I recall another case, in 2012, a young woman in Moscow named Alexandra Lotkova (left) who used her "traumatic" (rubber bullet) pistol in self defense against a group of young men who had allegedly attacked her own male associates in a Metro station, wounding the fellow on the right, a previously convicted criminal thug

"Criminal"; "Victim".

The investigation concluded that, from available evidence (security camera footage, witness testimony, etc) it was impossible to ascertain who was the aggressor, young men on both sides seemed to instigate each other into the brawl, and Lotkova ended up jailed for the shooting


The "Right To arms" pro-gun group, led by Maria Butina, whom you may have heard of lately haha, among others, had led protest campaigns demanding to free her


It wasn't successful, the judge found that she did exceed reasonable limits of self defense, and she did end up doing two years, I believe...

This shot affects everyone there. Even the police. I mentioned before how reluctant cops are to use lethal force, to shoot people, over there. Many Russians actually complain online about police "coddling" criminals by negotiating with them for a long time to disarm them; and young cops putting themselves in danger by fighting knife-wielding thugs hand to hand, and such; people actually write "American cops would have just shot him already..." haha
 
Nov 2015
2,200
683
UK
#6
If someone breaks into your home and attacks you with a deadly weapon (and a knife counts), then the use of deadly force is justified. One cannot be required to retreat from one's home, even if the general rule requires retreat where possible. Russia seems unnecessarily restrictive on this point.
There's a difference between reasonable and deadly.
 
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Sep 2017
2,856
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Massachusetts
#7
If someone breaks into your home and attacks you with a deadly weapon (and a knife counts), then the use of deadly force is justified. One cannot be required to retreat from one's home, even if the general rule requires retreat where possible. Russia seems unnecessarily restrictive on this point.
I don't see a problem with the "duty to retreat" applying in one's home, as well. If it were up to me, I'd empower a jury to consider the setting, along with other factors, in determining the reasonableness of the use of deadly force in self defense. And with the benefit of "reasonable doubt" going to defendant, I think in most cases a jury is going to let someone off for killing an armed home intruder. But I'm just not willing to make it an absolute rule -- that the jury is compelled to let the killer go free even if he acted excessively beyond a reasonable doubt.

Just to take a really extreme case, let's say it's a 90-pound strung-out heroin addict who breaks into a house, using a Swiss Army Knife to jimmy the lock, trying to find some money for a drug fix. The homeowner confronts the knife-wielding intruder with a baseball bat, swings it and breaks the hand that was holding the knife, disarming her. Then he hits her in the head, knocking her out cold. Then he stands over her and hits her repeatedly until she's dead. I'd want him to be punished, since he went beyond the point that a reasonable person in his situation would have. By all means give him the benefit of the doubt, but when it goes beyond that, he shouldn't have some absolute "home defense" rule to shelter him.
 

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
67,556
35,222
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
#9
I don't see a problem with the "duty to retreat" applying in one's home, as well. If it were up to me, I'd empower a jury to consider the setting, along with other factors, in determining the reasonableness of the use of deadly force in self defense. And with the benefit of "reasonable doubt" going to defendant, I think in most cases a jury is going to let someone off for killing an armed home intruder. But I'm just not willing to make it an absolute rule -- that the jury is compelled to let the killer go free even if he acted excessively beyond a reasonable doubt.
The lack of a duty to retreat from one's home does not make every use of deadly force per se reasonable.
 
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The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
39,611
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Toronto
#10
Not necessarily. Deadly force may be reasonable. It depends on the circumstances.
The lack of a duty to retreat from one's home does not make every use of deadly force per se reasonable.
In my personal opinion, it is only reasonable if and when you yourself, or your loved one, are threatened with own death if do not act.

A shove, for example, should not be answered with deadly force. But a knmife to the throat, say... That may meet the standard.

Of course, there are people, for instance, who are elderly and frail, for whom a simple push and resultant fall may cause broken bones and other serious injury, if not death. Or, say, a pregnant woman... There are various special circumstances... That's why this is such a complicated subject...