Religiously Knowledgeable Americans Rate Evangelicals Lowest

Jul 2019
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No, it is not. It is about Jewish survival. It is your ideology that is "pernicious." You are blaming Jews for getting ourselves persecuted by others.

You certainly seem to follow their antisemitic ideology.

Just because someone posted pictures and labeled them does not change reality. You clearly lack an understanding of Jews and Judaism.
You'd think the Jews would be the last people to steal the property and rights of others.. or demonize another people. You'd think they would be sympathetic towards refugees. Can you imagine "no right of return"...?
 

kmiller1610

Former Staff
Mar 2007
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Ok, so here are the categories Pew established for their survey. Anyone have any problems with this? I do. I am guessing that the folks who did this survey want to mix Fundamentalists with Evangelicals and somehow view an imaginary connection between race and religion. Fundamentalists are xenophobic, often illiterate, poor and frequently view the Bible as the only lens they need to understand the world. In fact, many get their entire understanding of religion from what their preachers tell them. Evangelicals are more educated, more widely read and read Bibles with commentaries and scholarship built in. Many fundamentalists read only the 1611 King James version. There are dozens of evangelical colleges and hundreds of Evangelical schools whose students score way above public school norms. And Rassales knows this because he mentioned it to me in another thread. Now since the main point of this thread is proven false by turning Evangelicals into Fundys, I call BS on this survey. It is driven by a political motive, not an honest search for the truth.

Religion survey.jpg
 
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boontito

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Ok, so here are the categories Pew established for their survey. Anyone have any problems with this? I do. I am guessing that the folks who did this survey want to mix Fundamentalists with Evangelicals and somehow view an imaginary connection between race and religion. Fundamentalists are xenophobic, often illiterate, poor and frequently view the Bible as the only lens they need to understand the world. In fact, many get their entire understanding of religion from what their preachers tell them. Evangelicals are more educated, more widely read and read Bibles with commentaries and scholarship built in. Many fundamentalists read only the 1611 King James version. There are dozens of evangelical colleges and hundreds of Evangelical schools whose students score way above public school norms. And Rassales knows this because he mentioned it to me in another thread. Now since the main point of this thread is proven false by turning Evangelicals into Fundys, I call BS on this survey. It is driven by a political motive, not an honest search for the truth.

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Those are your definitions of the two which conveniently lead you to the result you want to reach. That's an equally biased methodology as what you are saying is involved in the survey.

Others may see it somewhat differently.

What Distinguishes "Evangelical" from "Fundamentalist?"

Put simply, “evangelical” includes “fundamentalist” but not all evangelicals are fundamentalists. Put another way, fundamentalists are evangelicals, but since the 1940s, at least, there are many evangelicals who are not fundamentalists.
 

kmiller1610

Former Staff
Mar 2007
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Those are your definitions of the two which conveniently lead you to the result you want to reach. That's an equally biased methodology as what you are saying is involved in the survey.

Others may see it somewhat differently.

What Distinguishes "Evangelical" from "Fundamentalist?"

Put simply, “evangelical” includes “fundamentalist” but not all evangelicals are fundamentalists. Put another way, fundamentalists are evangelicals, but since the 1940s, at least, there are many evangelicals who are not fundamentalists.
So what does the reader understand about these differences?

All evangelicals are Protestants as well. And what does Mainline mean? And since Mostly Black includes both evangelicals and mainline churches, what the hell kind of survey is this?

This article was linked by PBS on the topic.

Evangelicals - Evangelicals V. Fundamentalists | The Jesus Factor | FRONTLINE | PBS
 

Ian Jeffrey

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Mar 2013
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Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
You'd think the Jews...
At least you are honest in admitting your attacks are on Jews and not "Israel."
... would be the last people to steal the property and rights of others.. or demonize another people.
The demonization and dehumanization is being perpetrated by Jewish enemies toward Jews. Jews have stolen no property - unless by "theft" you mean retrieving their own property previously stolen from them. And what "rights"? Israel has more rights for all people than any other country in the Middle East - women, gays, non-Jews all included. Contrast the Arab-Muslim nations (basically the rest of the Middle East, depending on how you define the region), which women, gays and non-Muslims have no rights of any kind.
You'd think they would be sympathetic towards refugees.
They are refugees from Jordan and Egypt, which owned "Palestinian" lands before losing them in the '67 war perpetrated by those (and other) countries.
Can you imagine "no right of return"...?
I do not have to imagine it. It was historically the case ever since the expulsion of the Jews from the region nearly 2,000 years ago. The reality is that Jews are safe in no country but their own, and people like you want to make them unsafe there, too. You sound like a supporter of Hamas and other terrorist organizations making war on defenseless Jewish civilians.
 

kmiller1610

Former Staff
Mar 2007
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Another Pew poll emphasizing how religious groups view themselves includes further bizarre categories. Why exactly would black protestants be a religious category?

I estimate that most black Protestants are evangelicals and judging by the fact that they rate Evangelicals the highest that would appear to be correct. What is the purpose behind a race based sub-category? Looks like segregation is still alive and well in poll land. Perhaps what they really wanted was to inflate that White Evangelical self rating. It is the largest number on the board. Easier to claim that all whites are White Nationalists when you excise blacks from their faith community.

Religious groups tend to rate themselves most positively

Self rating.jpg
 
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Rasselas

Former Staff
Feb 2010
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USA
Ok, so here are the categories Pew established for their survey. Anyone have any problems with this? I do. I am guessing that the folks who did this survey want to mix Fundamentalists with Evangelicals and somehow view an imaginary connection between race and religion. Fundamentalists are xenophobic, often illiterate, poor and frequently view the Bible as the only lens they need to understand the world. In fact, many get their entire understanding of religion from what their preachers tell them. Evangelicals are more educated, more widely read and read Bibles with commentaries and scholarship built in. Many fundamentalists read only the 1611 King James version. There are dozens of evangelical colleges and hundreds of Evangelical schools whose students score way above public school norms. And Rassales knows this because he mentioned it to me in another thread. Now since the main point of this thread is proven false by turning Evangelicals into Fundys, I call BS on this survey. It is driven by a political motive, not an honest search for the truth.

View attachment 26558
But this survey doesn't include "fundamentalist." That's because, for the most part, "fundamentalist" isn't a label people adopt for themselves; it's a label others put on them, and that's what you're doing here. Nearly every protestant denomination wants to be called an "evangelical" at some point--it was originally applied to early Lutherans. The division by race isn't "artificial." It's quite apt, since majority-black churches have operated for hundreds of years, by necessity, and Christianity practiced by American blacks is rather different in worship and even belief. MLK called Sunday morning the "most segregated hour" in the American week, so the idea that somehow it's inappropriate to separate them here is laughable. I haven't been involved in the evangelical scene (fancy how I combine that term with a hippy descriptor) in 30 years, but I rarely saw a black person at any revival or in any church I attended in my younger days.

As for education, let's remember that the strains of Christian thought represented by evangelicalism today were originated by very learned men, but those early leaders were either killed or prevented from leading churches. This left the second and third generations of those churches to be led by uneducated people, and those strains actually look askance at formal education. To demonstrate the truth of this, there's another Pew poll, measuring education level by sect/denominination: The most and least educated U.S. religious groups. We see among the least educated Christian denominations (20% or fewer with college degrees) are Nazerenes, Southern Baptists, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, Church of God in Christ, and Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee). These are all groups associated with evangelicalism. The Christian denominations considered "mainline" all enjoy higher than average levels of education (27% college degrees) except for Catholics, who are at 26%.

I question the distinction you're making here because I don't think you can find any doctrinal or organizational difference between what some people called "fundamentalist" and others call "white evangelical." Evangelicalism is DISTINGUISHED by lower levels of education generally. How many colleges are associated with mainline denominations (dozens, maybe hundreds)? How many are associated with those we might call "evangelical?" I know you went to one, but how many are there total--a half dozen?
 
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kmiller1610

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Here's a list of 70 Christian Universities and Colleges. To your point and the error of this poll, major religions of the world was a required course in my theology minor. A history of black literature was a well attended and popular elective in my English minor. We had many diversity students who attended all the local churches. The subdivision of black churches and evangelical churches in the poll is politically motivated and wrong. In fact the idea of asking groups within the poll of their impressions of other groups in the same poll, along with the divisions / categories they selected encourages the very sectarian thinking the poll exposes. It's self referential and divisive. Regarding the differences between Fundys and Evangelicals, the links from the NPR piece describe the differences quite well. I guarantee there are far more white fundamentalist churches than there are black churches so what is the point of separating one and not the other? Personally, I think that extreme fundamentalism in ANY religion is a source of hate crimes and wars, so if the poll creators really wanted to expose ignorance, they would want to see the numbers for that group, as isolated from the others. Instead, they went for the entirely standard and increasingly irrelevant white vs black division. I have attended plenty of primarily black churches (I was in several traveling performance groups) and was as warmly received as any black parishioner would be in the Lutheran church I attended while in college. There are many church denominations that have cultural commonalities. But frankly, "white" isn't one of them.

70 Best Christian Colleges & Universities - 2019 Edition
 
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Rasselas

Former Staff
Feb 2010
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Here's a list of 70 Christian Universities and Colleges. To your point and the error of this poll, major religions of the world was a required course in my theology minor. A history of black literature was a well attended and popular elective in my English minor. We had many diversity students who attended all the local churches. The subdivision of black churches and evangelical churches in the poll is politically motivated and wrong. In fact the idea of asking groups within the poll of their impressions of other groups in the same poll, along with the divisions / categories they selected encourages the very sectarian thinking the poll exposes. It's self referential and divisive. Regarding the differences between Fundys and Evangelicals, the links from the NPR piece describe the differences quite well. I guarantee there are far more white fundamentalist churches than there are black churches so what is the point of separating one and not the other? Personally, I think that extreme fundamentalism in ANY religion is a source of hate crimes and wars, so if the poll creators really wanted to expose ignorance, they would want to see the numbers for that group, as isolated from the others. Instead, they went for the entirely standard and increasingly irrelevant white vs black division. I have attended plenty of primarily black churches (I was in several traveling performance groups) and was as warmly received as any black parishioner would be in the Lutheran church I attended while in college. There are many church denominations that have cultural commonalities. But frankly, "white" isn't one of them.

70 Best Christian Colleges & Universities - 2019 Edition
That's an interesting list. I know someone who is a dean at one of them. I was rejected as a faculty candidate from at least one other after my statement of faith (which included how I respect my friends who are Hindu or Buddhist) was insufficient, I suppose. I was curious to see MY college was not on the list, but perhaps it wasn't considered "best" enough.

Not sure, however, how the list segregates "Christian" colleges and universities from any other kind. There are a great many "church-related" colleges, as mine is, that don't, for example, require confessions of faith from every instructor or threaten faculty with firing if they fail to uphold certain standards of belief. Is that the distinction here? What makes all these colleges and universities "Christian" while others are merely "church-related?" Why is Indiana Wesleyan at the top of your list but Wesleyan University (in Connecticut), a much more prominent and highly-ranked school, isn't? I notice that it's 80% white and only 4% black, less black than the area it draws from. I suspect most of the institutions on your list are similar.

You say that the distinction between white churches and black churches is "political," and certainly white and black Christians don't see eye to eye politically. But they have longstanding historical and doctrinal differences that continue to persuade black and white Americans to attend different different churches. Your own experience notwithstanding, there distinction between "white" churches and "black" churches is still a prominent features of American religion, no? Can you offer any evidence beyond your own anecdote?

Then....tell me....how is your distinction between "evangelical" and. "fundamentalist" NOT political? You don't want to be associated with those ignorant so-and-so's, I know that, but that's the real difference that might be meaningful for a poll like this? Do people identify as "fundamentalist" independent of the "evangelical" label? If they don't, it's not going to be possible to poll them separately. Could you point out where in the Pew report they define this distinction, and make from that an argument that the distinction is political?

The reason you like moving to a discussion of colleges and universities (I suspect) is that fundamentalism is a rejection of the academic project. Academics is based on logical extrapolations from measurable data. Religion is the acceptance of received texts as authoritative. These two positions have been in conflict since the scientific revolution that spawned the modern academic project 400 years ago. They used to call it the "new knowledge" and the "old knowledge," but the conflict has proven an uncomfortable one. To accept both, one must either compartmentalize them to their own realms or accept one and reject the other (as both fundamentalists and logical-positivists like myself do). Making them work together has become increasingly difficult over the centuries, and continues to. One side has led to academic freedom for researchers and teachers to go where the evidence leads them. The other leads to doctrinal requirements and the threat of firing for academics (and the dismissal of students) whose intellectual lives grow in directions that religious authorities find unacceptable. How is this not just fundamentalism taken to a higher level?

One prominent school on your list (Wheaton) fired a professor who stated that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do. This is an OBVIOUS point. You may argue that worship Him in the wrong way or attribute to Him pronouncements He never made, but it's objectively clear that Muslims worship the God of Abraham just as Christians and Jews do. They may be heretics, but they worship that same deity. How is this not an acceptable position at Wheaton? How is insisting everyone must accept an un-objective distinction based on religious preferences not fundamentalism?
 
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