Self determination vs. territorial integrity

Self determination or territorial integrity?

  • Self determination

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Territorial integrity

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other/It's complicated/Both (compromise)/Not sure

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
42,860
29,109
Toronto
#1
Yesterday, we were discussing my own breakaway homeland: Putin in Serbia

It got me thinking about the whole global issue of secession and statehood overall.

I want to know where everyone here stands on this.

What reigns supreme, the right of any nation or ethnicity or other distinct group, political and/or cultural, to autonomy and self determination? Or the right of a country to the inviolability of it's sovereignty and territorial integrity?

It is a very complex issue. Lots to consider.

For example, the impact on and direct consequences against the country from which a territory secedes. Sometimes, they can be quite significant and dire.

For instance, when Eritrea seceded from Ethiopia in 1991, after winning their war for independence, this now left Ethiopia landlocked, without a coastline

They had to disband their Navy, since they no longer had a port to park it in. And I'm sure it affected their economy in all sorts of unpleasant ways, no longer having own commercial ports either...

In such situations, perhaps some sort of financial compensation from the seceding party to the one being seceded from, should be negotiated, to reimburse them for their incurred losses. If Ethiopia and Eritrea had more cordial relations after going their separate ways in '91, perhaps they could have even agreed to lease a base for the Ethiopian Navy at a now Eritrean port. Ukraine continued to let Russia keep the Black Sea Fleet in Crimea after USSR went bust in '91, for rent (I'm sure they are regretting the hell out of that now, of course lol)

A secession of Quebec from Canada would be equally complicated, as it would among other things, essentially effectively cut off the Atlantic Provinces from the rest of the country, among other things


Idealistically, I have always backed self-determination and freedom for all peoples who seek it, everywhere. Abkhazians, Chechens, Palestinians, Catalonians, Quebecois, Kashmiris, Uighurs, or Tibetans, I don't care.
Hell, I know in America you guys have had, and possibly still do, secessionist movements in Hawaii, California, Alaska, and Texas. Though, out of all those, only Hawaii, and maybe Texas, seem like at all potentially legit.

The California one is total bs, their leader even lives in fucking Moscow, for God's sake:

California Secessionist Leader Throws in Towel, Moves to Russia

lol They actually have a whole "embassy" down there now


But,m anyway, yeah, I support all those who want to go own way. Part of that is undoubtedly because of where I am originally from, and my childhood.

Logically, however, yes, I see all the aforementioned and other difficulties and complications that could result from this.

Potentially, if everyone was free to just break away from their country if they are dissatisfied there, maybe all of humanity would fracture all the way into city states, or even smaller tribes and communes, essentially returning to a prehistoric existence (though, hopefully, retaining modern technology and scientific knowledge, of course haha)

That could be actually a blessing, maybe it would finally bring peace to Earth. Or, perhaps, even more conflicts and violence between all these smaller entities, and basically just total chaos everywhere...

So, I am not sure. I am torn on it.

What do you all think?
 
May 2016
3,524
866
california
#2
The problem is, what leads to war and conquest, not to mention generations of hostility. My bet is anything you do other than roll over and be assimilated.
 
Likes: The Man

The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
42,860
29,109
Toronto
#3
The problem is, what leads to war and conquest, not to mention generations of hostility. My bet is anything you do other than roll over and be assimilated.
That's another point. Unfortunately, most movement and wars for secession are unwinnable, by a smaller minority against a powerful, majority-backed government, without finding an equally or more powerful external ally. Russia for Abkhazia or Donbass. USA for Kosovo. Etc.

Which is an even more complex question, does a country have a right to violate the sovereignty of another to help what it sees as a mistreated and/or attacked minority fighting for independence there?
 
May 2016
3,524
866
california
#4
That's another point. Unfortunately, most movement and wars for secession are unwinnable, by a smaller minority against a powerful, majority-backed government, without finding an equally or more powerful external ally. Russia for Abkhazia or Donbass. USA for Kosovo. Etc.

Which is an even more complex question, does a country have a right to violate the sovereignty of another to help what it sees as a mistreated and/or attacked minority fighting for independence there?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions and sometimes nothing is worse than something. You get a choice lol.