Stalin: A hypothetical scenario

Nov 2013
9,482
8,702
NY
#21
The 25 million Russians who died during WWII, so that they could keep Hitler out of Russia. When you know if you do, you will watch another 25 million of your fellow Russians murdered in the most gruesome manner.

How is it that Stalin is that much more better than Hitler that they fought like this? Russia has it's own dark history of anti-Semitism, so they weren't protecting Jews.

So why?
I wouldn't say that it was Stalin being "better than" Hitler, in regards to how he treated his people.

Germany underestimated the distances, they got spoiled form their early successes when entering into Russia, and did not count in the time to get replenishments in a country as vast as the USSR. They also got crushed and weakened unexpectedly by the harsh winters of 1942 and 1943, which the Germans were not suited for the same way as the Russians.
And, in the end, Stalin was a better strategist and warlord, than Hitler.

Why did the Russians follow suit with 25 mio dying ?
Stalin entered the war for personal gain to Russia (Poland). Once Hitler broke the agreement and invaded the USSR, Stalin - and his people - had no choice but to fight with their lives for their survival.. and , if it comes to available masses, the USSR with 180 million people definitely had more human resources to re-supply at the front than Hitler did.

And while Stalin was not directly protecting the jews from Germany, agreed.. once Hitler attacked Stalin's land, everyone was worth protecting for him, against the Germans. That's my take.

Trump is not really a fan of or protecting Latinos, and would probably not fight Cuba over their own atrocities against their people. but if it came to a new war with Japan.. would he not fight the invading forces with all his might, including protecting and using as defensive forces our latino population just the same as the Caucasian one ?
I think he would. Where it furthers you own goal, having a common enemy can help making friends, temporarily.
 
Aug 2012
3,093
754
the Sussex Downs
#23
25 million died in WWII, and Stalin murdered another 15 million, is my data. Which is no doubt inaccurate, but the point is, it's not like the 1,000 who died at Jonestown, because of Jim Jones..

It wasn't mad hysteria. Russians are probably as willing to fight to the death today, because it wasn't a fugue state. That's not possible.

And since I Don't think there are genetically-based explanations, then why? What made/makes Russians so....violent?

Even Israelis are not willing to kill their own children because they are defending their country.

It matters because the reasons wars occur, IMO, may be varied but they always include a belief that the people we are fighting with are "not like us", "they don't mind dying like we do". And because the U.S. government, among others, used this bias to try to make Americans be okay with nuking Russia.

And, depending on who you believe, we nearly did about 5 times since WWII. "Nearly" as in seconds, minutes from pressing the button.
Stalin starved to death millions of his own -- starved as in took all food sources and seeds away from millions and not just in the Ukraine. people were eating each other, it was so bad, even cutting bits off others whilst still alive --- they were digging graves, including their own, whilst they still had strength.

If a Russian soldier was captured Stalin counted that as treason ( because so many had surrendered early on) and their whole families were sent to the gulag ( including one of his sons) they, the soldiers shot on return ( including his own son). And Russia had not signed the latest Geneva Convention so their war was on a different footing.

After WWII the US Gov feared that Stalin would just walk into Western Europe. Germany was just dust and the rest of Europe was leaning Left so they paid the CIA a lot a dosh to set up a Fed, akin to the US ---- dunno if the EU is exactly what they had in mind but that is what we got - ironically we now have the The USSRE
 
Likes: The Man

The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
41,410
27,569
Toronto
#24
Stalin starved to death millions of his own -- starved as in took all food sources and seeds away from millions and not just in the Ukraine. people were eating each other, it was so bad, even cutting bits off others whilst still alive --- they were digging graves, including their own, whilst they still had strength.

If a Russian soldier was captured Stalin counted that as treason ( because so many had surrendered early on) and their whole families were sent to the gulag ( including one of his sons) they, the soldiers shot on return ( including his own son). And Russia had not signed the latest Geneva Convention so their war was on a different footing.

After WWII the US Gov feared that Stalin would just walk into Western Europe. Germany was just dust and the rest of Europe was leaning Left so they paid the CIA a lot a dosh to set up a Fed, akin to the US ---- dunno if the EU is exactly what they had in mind but that is what we got - ironically we now have the The USSRE
That son never returned, he died in the German POW camp, killed himself, rather than allow them to use him to pressure his father...

Yakov Dzhugashvili was his name


In captivity


Great-grandson of Stalin today living in Moscow also named Yakov, in his honor...


I do commend Stalin & Co back then for this: many of the upper echelon families sent their sons to the War, just like regular people...

No excuse, of course, for all the screwed up crap they also did back then...
 
Aug 2012
3,093
754
the Sussex Downs
#25
That son never returned, he died in the German POW camp, killed himself, rather than allow them to use him to pressure his father...

Yakov Dzhugashvili was his name


In captivity


Great-grandson of Stalin today living in Moscow also named Yakov, in his honor...


I do commend Stalin & Co back then for this: many of the upper echelon families sent their sons to the War, just like regular people...

No excuse, of course, for all the screwed up crap they also did back then...
Stalin didn't give a shit about his family and in the past sons of politicos, noblemen and monarchs did go to war, including WWI and II. In the past heads of state and co often lead 'the charge'. It is only in latter days that politicos have not either fought themselves or sent their children to fight.
 
Likes: The Man
Jun 2014
59,572
34,032
Cleveland, Ohio
#26
It's not like people chose to die. 25 million is on the high end of estimates, but even if it's correct most of the dead were not soldiers - they were civilians. Wars bring famine and economic dislocation; and this leads to a lot of deaths. These numbers of dead of course include all the Jews, gypsies, and other undesirables killed by the Nazis, along with other civilians executed in reprisals for guerilla resistance behind Nazi lines. It includes possibly as many as 3 million POWs who died due to the terrible conditions in the German camps - these are people who surrendered; not those who fought on at any cost. It includes those Soviet citizens who took up arms against the USSR, as many did - especially in Western republics who saw the German invasion as an opportunity for liberation from Soviet control. It includes political opponents killed by the Soviet state.

Most who fought were conscripts - it's not like they were given an option.

Of course, some people did like Stalin, and still do. Even more, regardless of their opinion of Stalin as a man, would still be willing to fight to defend their fatherland from a foreign invasion. In many of their eyes this was an existential struggle for the very survival of the Russian people. And it's not like this is just propaganda - they weren't too far wrong. The Nazi regime discussed Slavs as being untermenschen; and they really did intend to kill millions. They wanted the agricultural land of Ukraine; but they wanted it so its produce could be used to feed Germany. The millions of Russians and Ukrainians who lived off that food had to be dealt with. In the planning for the invasion of the USSR, the German Ministry of Food and Agriculture noted:

"Many tens of millions of people in this country will become superfluous and will die or must emigrate to Siberia. Attempts to rescue the population there from death through starvation by obtaining surpluses from the black earth zone can only come at the expense of the provisioning of Europe. They prevent the possibility of Germany holding out till the end of the war, they prevent Germany and Europe from resisting the blockade."

And they put this into practice when they invaded - several millions of the Soviet dead were those who starved to death in Nazi occupied territory because their food was appropriated for the Wehrmacht.
Why didn't they run away? That seems like the normal, human response. It certainly would have been mine.

There was no mountain range, etc. they could not traverse, boxing them in.
 
Jun 2014
59,572
34,032
Cleveland, Ohio
#27
That son never returned, he died in the German POW camp, killed himself, rather than allow them to use him to pressure his father...

Yakov Dzhugashvili was his name


In captivity


Great-grandson of Stalin today living in Moscow also named Yakov, in his honor...


I do commend Stalin & Co back then for this: many of the upper echelon families sent their sons to the War, just like regular people...

No excuse, of course, for all the screwed up crap they also did back then...
 

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