Trump asks John Bolton to resign

Apr 2012
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45,343
Englewood,Ohio
Bravissimo! Why can't we always have well-informed, and informative posts such as the above, which are devoid of sniping at people seen as 'the other side'?
If
I can't wait to hear the Trump sycophants actually believe the president told the truth that has a track record about lying about just about everything.
according to what I am hearing Bolton disagreed with Trump on meeting with Kim,objected to the so called Taliban meeting, which I do not believe is even real. Trump said he consulted no one, talked to no one about it. Set it up himself.

Of course Bolton is a die hard war monger, he did not want any meetings at all.

Trump just announced he had provided more money for the Military, we struck as no one ever had before and if they dared to come back he would kick the s*** out of them! So There!!!
 
Oct 2009
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Kansas
Do you KNOW the history of Afghanistan and Iraq? Afghanistan was defined (by the Brits) as the territory beyond that crest line of hills they could not effectively control. They dominated the Indian subcontinent for nearly three hundred years, but they couldn't rule Afghanistan. The land is too harsh, the people too independent and hardy. And ruthless. Here's a line from a Kipling poem (and he served the Raj, so he should know):

The Brits were really good at making places stable--stable enough to derive profit from and even move to--but Afghanistan is (literally) that place they couldn't be bothered to rule.

As for Iraq, it was created by the Brits out of three provinces of the old Ottoman Empire, provinces that the Ottoman Turks ruled for hundreds of years. But even the Ottomans discovered that when the natives were restless, the best thing to do was....withdraw. Just disappear. Give them no one to fight against for a while.

Do these sound like places that can "turn out just fine" if you just apply enough pressure? The payoff isn't worth the cost, and the cost is enormous.
We'll never know for sure. You're probably not wrong.

What won the West was murdering all the natives
Yes. I certainly don't dispute that.

driving a brand new invention called the "locomotive" across it and getting millions of immigrants and poor native-born Americans to move there and become farmers. It was worth it because the untapped continent they "won" was full of arable land, precious and useful minerals, and ranges for cattle. Have you looked at the topography of either Afghanistan or Iraq?
Afghanistan at a minimum is chock full of valuable minerals. But I think you've misunderstood my point here: I don't think we should have invaded Afghanistan and toppled the Taliban government. This move did not succeed in dismantling Al Qaeda as envisioned, it took 10 years to get their leader in another damn country, and Al Qaeda of course remains today a major international threat. It should not have been done. Yet having done it, we should've been prepared to invest absolutely everything we had into securing our conquest, or else it was always doomed to failure. It may have been doomed anyway, but our approach ensured that it was.
 
Likes: DairyHeiress
Feb 2010
70,965
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USA
We'll never know for sure. You're probably not wrong.


Yes. I certainly don't dispute that.


Afghanistan at a minimum is chock full of valuable minerals. But I think you've misunderstood my point here: I don't think we should have invaded Afghanistan and toppled the Taliban government. This move did not succeed in dismantling Al Qaeda as envisioned, it took 10 years to get their leader in another damn country, and Al Qaeda of course remains today a major international threat. It should not have been done. Yet having done it, we should've been prepared to invest absolutely everything we had into securing our conquest, or else it was always doomed to failure. It may have been doomed anyway, but our approach ensured that it was.
It was doomed to failure if the goal was a stable, pro-American government. Afghanistan isn't even a nation state in the proper sense of the word. It's fate is tied to Pakistan--which can't even control its western-most territory, Waziristan, which is ethnically the same as Afghanistan. We've been paying $billions$ to Pakistan to help us with Afghanistan (or at least not fuck us there) and what has it bought us? They just fuck with us a little bit less.

And you're wrong about Afghanistan's natural resources. They're biggest export is opium, an illicit product that the Taliban actually kept farmers from growing. They need that kind of high-value crop because the only farmable land in the country lies within a few hundred yards of the very few rivers they have. The real opportunity for wealth in Afghanistan has to do with moving resources from elsewhere THROUGH the country. Russia (and to a lesser extent, China) have been trying to build an oil pipeline that would bring petroleum from Central Asia to a port in the Arabian Sea so it can be shipped around the world (mostly to points east like China). That requires at least some level of stability, but we don't trust either the Russians to the Chinese to do that job, so we're back to square one.

Really the only way to give it "everything thing we have" is to simply kill the entire population, staring with the warlords and working our way down. That would be a PR disaster (to put it mildly) and probably cause us even more problems in the rest of the Arab/Islamic world.

Sometimes there isn't any good option. Afghanistan is (and always has been) one of those places. Invading Afghanistan was justified--in fact, it was pretty much REQUIRED. Dealing with the aftermath is simply not going to turn out well, no matter what course of action we choose, no matter what level of resources we want to put into it. Maybe if we invested our entire defense budget in that one place.....and gave up having influence or protecting anywhere else.

The only real option is something no one here wants--leave in charge whatever government can actually rule that place, but get them to do the one thing we need: avoid supporting and training terrorists who come bother US (and maybe Europe)....but that would mean screwing over our ally Israel, because there's no way they're giving up THAT goal.