Why Trump Will Win Again

highway234

Former Staff
Feb 2010
17,911
7,808
Where'm I At, Doe?
oh sorry, i'm being hyperbolic and catastrophizing about the specific $22 trillion figure again!

I know i'm way out of line, but that strikes me as a bit high.
 
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Jets

Moderator
Feb 2011
23,403
14,000
New York
oh sorry, i'm being hyperbolic and catastrophizing about the specific $22 trillion figure again!

I know i'm way out of line, but that strikes me as a bit high.
And Trump did such a great job lowering the deficit.

Welcome to the Greatest Show...
 

highway234

Former Staff
Feb 2010
17,911
7,808
Where'm I At, Doe?
And Trump did such a great job lowering the deficit.

Welcome to the Greatest Show...
lol. I'm beginning to find this all a bit annoying.

$22 trillion strikes me as a lot of money. but apparently that's not the problem, the problem is me setting my hair on fire about it. the sky is falling!

i mean, isn't someone liable to wanna collect on this debt eventually? who do we owe it to? what did we get for all that money we borrowed? was it really us who borrowed it? who's getting all the interest on it? did we ever vote to borrow all this money? i don't remember ever agreeing to borrow $22 trillion.

but whatever. I'm the problem. forget i brought it up.
 
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Jan 2007
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lol. I'm beginning to find this all a bit annoying.

$22 trillion strikes me as a lot of money. but apparently that's not the problem, the problem is me setting my hair on fire about it. the sky is falling!

i mean, isn't someone liable to wanna collect on this debt eventually? who do we owe it to? what did we get for all that money we borrowed? was it really us who borrowed it? who's getting all the interest on it? did we ever vote to borrow all this money? i don't remember ever agreeing to borrow $22 trillion.

but whatever. I'm the problem. forget i brought it up.

That's national debt. Bond holders are to be paid back. State and local governments are in trouble. Some really in trouble, pensions, works projects, etc. Tax em hard, people will move somewhere else....Detroit. ....dead for decades.
 
Feb 2011
17,040
6,084
Boise, ID
do they have an opinion on running up the debt to $22 trillion specifically?
My opinion is that we shouldn't feign certainty over something we don't fully understand. If I were that freaked out about it, 2020 would certainly present a real conundrum for me, because Democrats are certainly not running on a platform of fiscal conservatism considering some of their big ideas.

I'd also have to be able to refute guys like Paul Krugman (a raging Democrat) who, less than a year ago, said "debt is way, way down on the list of things to worry about — absolutely trivial compared with, say, crumbling infrastructure, which should be fixed without worrying about paying as you go," or Joseph Stiglitz, practically a liberal hero Nobel Laureate economist and another raging Democrat supporter, who explains here why what he calls "deficit fetishism" drives him crazy.
 
Jan 2007
38,321
8,853
My opinion is that we shouldn't feign certainty over something we don't fully understand. If I were that freaked out about it, 2020 would certainly present a real conundrum for me, because Democrats are certainly not running on a platform of fiscal conservatism considering some of their big ideas.

I'd also have to be able to refute guys like Paul Krugman (a raging Democrat) who, less than a year ago, said "debt is way, way down on the list of things to worry about — absolutely trivial compared with, say, crumbling infrastructure, which should be fixed without worrying about paying as you go," or Joseph Stiglitz, practically a liberal hero Nobel Laureate economist and another raging Democrat supporter, who explains here why what he calls "deficit fetishism" drives him crazy.

State and local debt will have very real consequences. Pensions melting away for state employees.
 
Feb 2011
17,040
6,084
Boise, ID
State and local debt will have very real consequences. Pensions melting away for state employees.
That, on the other hand, is very true, and this is an issue that deserves super intense focus, politically, but is hardly on anyone's radar. There are 3-4 states (Illinois, New Jersey, Connecticut, Kentucky) that are 35% or less funded despite stocks are trading at all-time highs. What that means is they are one moderate recession and a handful of years away from pretty much hopeless insolvency, at which point they'll be asking for a federal bailout. The controversy of a federal bailout of irresponsibly managed pensions should be off the charts. The alternative of no bailout and state government bankruptcy would create an economic wasteland out of these states for generations. This should be on everyone's mind and inspiring intense debate. But if the topic is even brought up (which is probably a long shot), we are certain to get bonkers answers like "we have to honor those pension promises without putting the burden on taxpayers," which is completely nonsensical.
 
Jan 2007
38,321
8,853
That, on the other hand, is very true, and this is an issue that deserves super intense focus, politically, but is hardly on anyone's radar. There are 3-4 states (Illinois, New Jersey, Connecticut, Kentucky) that are 35% or less funded despite stocks are trading at all-time highs. What that means is they are one moderate recession and a handful of years away from pretty much hopeless insolvency, at which point they'll be asking for a federal bailout. The controversy of a federal bailout of irresponsibly managed pensions should be off the charts. The alternative of no bailout and state government bankruptcy would create an economic wasteland out of these states for generations. This should be on everyone's mind and inspiring intense debate. But if the topic is even brought up (which is probably a long shot), we are certain to get bonkers answers like "we have to honor those pension promises without putting the burden on taxpayers," which is completely nonsensical.
Some of the pensions even for modest jobs are insanely high. They will burn and collapse. California gets a lot of attention for that.
 

highway234

Former Staff
Feb 2010
17,911
7,808
Where'm I At, Doe?
My opinion is that we shouldn't feign certainty over something we don't fully understand. If I were that freaked out about it, 2020 would certainly present a real conundrum for me, because Democrats are certainly not running on a platform of fiscal conservatism considering some of their big ideas.

I'd also have to be able to refute guys like Paul Krugman (a raging Democrat) who, less than a year ago, said "debt is way, way down on the list of things to worry about — absolutely trivial compared with, say, crumbling infrastructure, which should be fixed without worrying about paying as you go," or Joseph Stiglitz, practically a liberal hero Nobel Laureate economist and another raging Democrat supporter, who explains here why what he calls "deficit fetishism" drives him crazy.
that's fair. I like Krugman and Stiglitz, and I appreciate the notion that people shouldn't over-focus on projections and metrics. Krugman has a quote about people wanting to always give economic stories morals the way we give fables morals that's pretty good stuff.

That said, and I get that debt in itself is not necessarily cause for concern, $22 trillion in debt in particular does strike me, as a layperson, as cause for serious concern. If the figure is somehow falsified or manipulated, then I'd like to know who falsified or manipulated it. If it's real, the country's clearly in a bit of trouble.
 

highway234

Former Staff
Feb 2010
17,911
7,808
Where'm I At, Doe?
That's national debt. Bond holders are to be paid back. State and local governments are in trouble. Some really in trouble, pensions, works projects, etc. Tax em hard, people will move somewhere else....Detroit. ....dead for decades.
sounds like there might be corruption and nepotism at the state and local level. but bonds are backstopped by federal oversight. so it sounds to me like in this case, more federal oversight is called for?